Two Different Worlds

Two worlds one is yours and the other mine
I am not poor but you see you are only fine
Different are the eyes different are the mind
Different are the legs and different hand

You collect money I collect wisdom
You collect friend but I collect friendship
You look for fruits but I grow fruit-tree
You want to be rich but I am free

There is god for you but I see him everywhere
My gods are in slums but yours in temples
You become happy at the hunger of my gods
You chuckkle around the empty pots of my lords

In the empty stomach you make dine
You start to convert 5 into nine
Your would be the earth but
The world would be mine!

Transcription of Interview 7

Transcription of Interview 7
Date: July 19, 2009 (Saturday) Time: 11 AM to 11:30 AM
Researcher: Sir, let me put my first curiosity. It seems that we have focused more on formal education? Are non-formal and informal learning important as equally as formal learning? Do you think the three forms of learning are equal? If not, what do you think we should do to make them equally important?
Respondent: Thank you for this opportunity. Well, I think to address this issue we have to see the history of education. Informal learning is the beginning of education. Gradually, people realize that informal education couldn’t deliver knowledge completely. To compensate this formal education came into practice. The foundation of our knowledge or education is informal education. If you see the intellectual development of an individual roughly 80% of learning comes informally. So informal learning leads our life and it is enhanced by formal and non-formal education. The basics of our knowledge are informal. Formal education adds value to these basics. If formal education system misses out something and is unable to provide appropriate delivery then only we go to non-formal education. That’s why, I think, the concept of giving importance to either one or the other modes of learning is not so important. The three modes of learning take place in the life of all individuals.
The knowledge and skill that is delivered through societal and family system is informal learning. The society gave the responsibility of providing knowledge on the basis of contextual relation to formal education. Before 4/5 hundred years ago the responsibilities of delivering formal knowledge was taken by religion and some social institutions. Therefore, if you take the things in this sense the formal education system emerged as an alternative of informal education system. In the due course of time the system of schooling developed. In this way schools came as an agent of education to deliver knowledge which the family was not able to deliver.
Schooling could sole some of the problems but as all the people couldn’t have access to school and schools didn’t fit for the ones who were in different social context. For imparting knowledge to them the non-formal education system developed as another facet of formal education. Thus non-formal and formal educations are in complementary relationship. Non-formal is not the thing to challenge formal education.
Sometimes the issue of formal, non-formal and informal learning has to bees seen through the state-relation perspective. Informal education grows as per the interest of a family or a society. Schooling is organized by a state. So school is a state agency, it’s a state business because it quenches the thirst of the state. The state uses it to fulfill its objectives. Hence informal is societal business and formal is state business. Non-formal overlaps to them. Sometimes it is societal business and sometimes state-business. Broadly, non-formal and formal are in state-territory whereas informal education is in non-state territory.
So far as the issue of recognition of one mode of learning to another mode of learning, formal education deserves credit and it is compatible and comparable. Its recognition is transferable. It claims value in a concrete manner. But the credit award system of non-formal education is not so concretized and recognized. It doesn’t have any recognized framework. The requirement of non-formal education in different parts of the world may be different. Thus, one the basis of global family need, for survival need, there is informal education and formal education is attached to it. And non-formal education takes place when formal education is inadequate to deliver the desired knowledge to the desired people. So formal education is defined and shaped by curricular framework but non-formal education goes beyond such curricular framework. On the basis of recognition formal education is globally recognized because it is comparable, compatible and standardized.
Researcher: Sir, can we recognize non-formal and informal learning as formal learning? If yes, how should it be done?
Respondent: There is nothing as such. It can be done but a number of things have to be done for this. The credit system has to be concretized. The value of education that has been attached to formal education has also to be given to non-formal education. We have to go in a comparable credit system which is called accreditation. For accreditation we have to consider some of the important things for example content load, mode of delivery, authenticity of assessment, etc. Formal system defines and concretizes the knowledge gained by an individual and certifies it.
In the context of Nepal some efforts have been made to recognize non-formal learning. Non-formal participants have got chance to enter into formal education system. Attempts have been made to make non-formal and formal education comparable. We have tried to put non-formal education in an accreditation system. For making non-formal education creditable like formal education it must adopt some of the vital features of formal education such as examination, curriculum, etc. If they are not made so they can’t be made comparable. Without making them comparable one can’t replace another.
Researcher: Sir, can we recognize the learning achievements of informal learners and certify them as formal learners? For example, if a person, who has never gone to school, claims that s/he has knowledge and skills equivalent to the one who has passed Bachelor Degree? What problems do you see certify his/her existing knowledge and to allow him/her to enroll in Master Degree?
Respondent: You have to see the relation between knowledge and certificate through a different perspective. Knowledge is a fundamental thing. To make it instrumental we need to certify it. Knowledge is what one knows, what s/he can do or perform. So knowledge is axiomatic, grows informally. It is not all the time necessary that it should be certified. Certification is needed only when we have to make value transfer of need mobility from one form to another. People used to prove their ability and talent by doing some extraordinary thing in the past. Only to make it instrumental such provision of certification was brought. That’s why what I believe is that certificate doesn’t represent the knowledge of an individual in its totality.
If we use certificate to value knowledge, then the certificate can undermine knowledge itself. What is considered important is certificate rather than knowledge. Knowledge has its ingenuity. We can’t compare certificate with ingenuity. What I have seen is that the most fundamental part is knowledge and experience of an individual. Just to make it representative it has been converted into certificate. Moreover, in order to recognize traditional value and norms we don’t need to certify it. Certificate itself is a testimony; nonetheless, it can sometime give misrepresentation. It has many flaws. It can’t represent the total knowledge of an individual. For example, in SLC examination one-third of the total knowledge is able to provide the certificate. First of all 100% itself is not the total knowledge of an individual. Even if we consider it a total knowledge, just one-third is enough for the certificate. We shouldn’t see totality of knowledge in certificate. They don’t have one to one relation. If we do so it may mislead.
In my opinion, in the case of traditional knowledge, wisdom and skill it has to go on getting values as it has been getting since past. As far as modern education system is concerned the certification has got credit because it has given global mobility and transferability of one’s knowledge and skill. Now-a-days people have started talking about decertification. Rather than giving importance to certificate we have to consider knowledge, skill and competence of an individual.
Researcher: If s/he without certificate has knowledge, skill and competence equivalent to the one who has done Bachelor Degree…
Respondent: Yes, that is what it should be. Certificate is an artificial arrangement only. It is not an absolute truth. The absolute truth is knowledge. We have been using certificate because we don’t have other alternative to see the absolute truth. Had there been a better option certificate wouldn’t have been used. The reason behind decertification is that it hasn’t made a reliable representation as expected. But it doesn’t mean that we have to destabilize the existing system.
Researcher: Sir, let me put you related but a bit different issue. As you said earlier people acquire knowledge and skill, no matter whether they acquire through forma, non-formal or informal means. Then, can we identify such knowledge and skill and keep them in a single National Qualifications Framework and level them as per the complexity in acquiring them in order to make all three forms of learning equivalent?
Respondent: It’s an interesting facet but it may have some unwanted consequences. For example, the knowledge system as a whole may inclined towards commercialization. Indigenous knowledge may be commercialized. It is potential rather than commercial. It is a non-commercial asset. I don’t think it should be treated as a commodity. If we use it as a commodity it may lose its ground. I think if we start treating indigenous knowledge it won’t posses its wisdom and preciousness. Indigenous knowledge has been preserved in the form of religion, culture and the faith of an individual. If we start certifying them it may lose it value. If we give monetary value to indigenous knowledge it may develop a negative tradition. Therefore, every time certificate may not provide value to informal learning.
Our indigenous knowledge deserves value without certificate. If we go on certifying the vast treasure of knowledge our ancestors preserved and transferred to us it will be a great injustice. Thus, certification can go against justice. To go for monetary system certification is needed but if certification gets space in spiritual values it may develop some kind of negative tradition.
Researcher: Sir, in order to preserve and promote such knowledge and skill what should be done?
Respondent: The most important thing is trust. We have to build up trust. The society moves on trust. For example, one goes to visit doctor because of trust. The patient doesn’t see the certificate of the doctor. We have to be accountable to the trust. Sometimes certificate can work as an instrument of trust but it can’t be the replacement of trust. Trust is virtue. So, we have to promote indigenous knowledge and skill in terms of trust.
We are bound by a kind of code-of-conduct. It has been working without certificate on the basis of faith system. If we keep everything on certificate and move accordingly we may lose many precious things of our culture and tradition. Furthermore, the tendency will degrade the given value of the indigenous knowledge.
If we respect indigenous knowledge in its own status it gets value but when we try to certify them some artificial knowledge may outwit such precious wisdom. I mean to say the artificial knowledge of an individual that s/he uses to get certificate may replace his/her real knowledge.
Researcher: Finally, what should we do to enhance lifelong learning and continuing education in the context of Nepal?
Respondent: The issue you have raised in very crucial. The main thing is how to make knowledge functional. If there is a positive relation between knowledge and its function it will enhance lifelong learning and continuing education but if it is not knowledge can deteriorate. Retention and promotion of knowledge is its application. In a professional community or organization we have to drive knowledge to its fullest we have to create a system of knowledge sharing and cross breading in order to make knowledge and skill functional. Our knowledge and skill can be multiplied by sharing. The system of sharing is needed in order to make our knowledge and skill contemporaneous. Knowledge earned 10 years ago may not be the same knowledge earned today and the knowledge likely to be earned after 10 years. There is no absolute truth in the world. Truth differs according to time and space. If a doctor has a certificate that s/he achieved 5 years ago it represents his/her knowledge of that time. The knowledge may not be functional if it is not made up-to-date. It may not give appropriate service and may culminate into unfavorable consequences. Therefore, knowledge has to be made contemporaneous. Thank you very much.
Researcher: Thank you very much sir for your time and valuable inputs for my research.

Transcription of interview 6

Transcription of interview 6
Date: July 18, 2009 (Saturday) Time 6 PM to 7:30 PM
Researcher: Madam Namaste!
Respondent: Namaskar sir. How are you doing?
Researcher: Well Ma'm. I finished transcribing an interview and waiting for you.
Respondent: That's right. I am ready. You can go ahead.
Researcher: Ma'm, in your opinion should we make people free to acquire knowledge and skill through all three modes of learning? If yes, how can we make people free to acquire knowledge through formal, non-formal and informal means?
Respondent: Yes we can. For this regard there should be collective effort from individual, community, government all.
Researcher: Should we make all these three forms equally important?
Respondent: yes. The most important is the individual him/herself. S/he should have learning attitude. After that other comes later. Otherwise it does not make sense.
Researcher: O k Madam. What do you think a nation should do to take all these forms in an equal footing?
Respondent: Nations effort is another important aspect. The nation should have clear policy, resources and other essential things. Though the nation’s attention is on formal education basically however, they have non-formal education program too. They should make it more effective providing more choices. About informal....they can do different program, campaign.... Actually lifelong learning is learning through the life which is possible in different context. Continuing education is one of the contexts.
Researcher: Thank you Ma'm. In your opinion should we provide certification to informal learners as equivalent to formal ones? If yes, how should their knowledge and skills should be assessed?
Respondent: This is the very important question and most essential thing too. In Nepal that kind of provision is rare. To make it more relevant they have to find out the practices of other countries and make the policy. In the US the community college provide that kind of knowledge and skills. Besides this the universities also conduct Adult education.... and continuing education program on regular basis....
Researcher: What problems do you see in identifying and recognizing indigenous knowledge in Nepal?
Respondent: The medium of mass education is said to be formal education, moreover in the context of Nepal without formal education we cannot imagine education system as a whole. But if we see the history of education and current international practices we can find entirely a different scenario. So, what I think is lifelong learning and continuing education, in a sense, is non-formal education and informal learning. We can take formal education for a very limited period of time. These two forms of learning are the constituents of lifelong learning. People can’t continue their formal education because of family problems but their knowledge and skills need to be updated and the only way to do this is non-formal and informal learning. Informal learning takes place wherever we go and whatever we do. To enhance it the place where people work or spend time should have learning environment.
Researcher: Can we provide eligibility for informal learners to enter into formal education system? For example, a person has never gone to school, neither college but s/he claims that s/he has the knowledge equivalent to the one who has passed Bachelor Degree through regular schooling. Can we allow the former to get admission in Master Degree? If yes, what type of mechanism should be developed?
Respondent: This is the most important and relevant issue. If a nation can do this it will be very good asset for it overall development. Because of the lack of such system a person who has skill and knowledge is deprived of opportunity because of the lack of certificate. As a consequence an individual, his/her society and as a whole the nation is in loss. What I have heard and read is that some people who have not even passed SLC are better, especially in mathematics, than a graduation holder. I think a country has to take such cases seriously. In our country, I think because of political instability these things are overshadowed. There should be a platform so as to provide opportunity for an individual to assess his/her knowledge and skill. A kind of placement test can be administered and on the basis of his/her performance he/she should be given an equivalent certificate.
Researcher: What type of problem do you think will come while recognizing various types of indigenous knowledge in a diversified nation like ours?
Respondent: Caste system – one of the negative aspect of Hinduism – can bring some problems. Caste system emerged out of works people did in the past. While the works of all the people are made equivalent in terms of the skill and knowledge needed it may bring some social conflict but I don’t think racial discrimination will be a major problem because of the government effort and public awareness. But there are chances of racial conflict so the proposed plan for recognition and validation of indigenous knowledge and skill should work in such way that it will minimize the chances of social conflict by changing our educational policy.
Researcher: Can we develop a National Qualifications Framework as the nations of European Union have done? What problems do you see to identify and list out all types of knowledge and skill – formal, non-formal, and informal- and keep them under a single framework so as to make the system of accreditation comfortable?
Respondent: It is relevant and necessary thing of our time. I think universities in Nepal have to design courses by analyzing the course of international universities so as to provide recognition and accreditation. Knowledge and skills should be made universally acceptable both inside and outside Nepal, otherwise it will bring problem. I think Nepal government should take this seriously. National Qualifications Framework should be developed with the help of proper indicators and it should also include the ways of assessing one’s knowledge, skills and competence.
Researcher: In the case of lifelong learning which form of learning – formal, non-formal and informal – do you think is more important? If you think they are equally important than how can we make them so in the context of Nepal?
Respondent: I think these three forms of learning are integrated things. A person studying in school learns not only what is in the curriculum. Side-by-side s/he learns while walking on the street, while involving with peers, while studying himself/herself. So, I don’t think formal learning alone can work. To enrich formal education both non-formal and informal learning have significant responsibility. In this sense formal learning can’t exist without informal and non-formal learning. All of these three forms have to be promoted simultaneously. Social organizations have to aware people of the importance of informal learning.
Researcher: Do you think non-formal and informal learner can compete with the people who come from formal schooling in the job market?
Respondent: I don’t think it will be a problem. When one has an equivalent certificate s/he can easily compete with others. Equivalent certificate means equivalent knowledge, skill and competence. But effective criteria have to be developed to assess such knowledge, skills and competence. If a valid institution assess in a fair manner all types of learners who are certified equally well. If we develop such type of culture, I think this will not be a problem.
Researcher: Madam, should the government allow them to fight for the government posts such as in Public Service Commission?
Respondent: I don’t know why the people are motivated to government posts. Competent people shouldn’t depend on the job created by others, rather they have to create job for them themselves. They can be entrepreneur, businessperson, anything as per their interests and capacity.
Researcher: Finally, how do you think we should validate informal and non-formal learning so as to enhance lifelong learning and continuing education?
Respondent: As I said already we have to develop a National Qualifications Framework at national level and that should be comparable to international level. Our education standard has to be made as equal as the standard of international level. Knowledge and skill assessment shouldn’t be limited to paper and pencil test. There should be effective, valid and reliable ability testing mechanism. For validation there should be clear assessment criteria. After rigorous experimentation policy has to be made to institutionalize it. It is not an easy task but if we can do it, it will certainly make a great contribution for a large group of disadvantaged people of the nation.
Researcher: Madam, thank you very much for providing me time and give valuable inputs.

Transcription of interview 5

Transcription of interview 5
Date: July 17, 2009 (Friday) Time 4 PM to 4:30 PM
Researcher: Sir, in your opinion, should we make formal, non-formal and informal learning equal? If yes, how can we do so? And particularly, if we have to provide freedom of choice for learners through three forms of learning equally well what should we do?
Respondent: If you take me as a reference, I learnt about 80% informally. Formal learning taught me just to read and write. We learn many things in our life such as behavioral learning, moral learning etc informally. The time of formal learning is very limited, just 5-6 hours in a day. Moreover, formal learning takes very short period of time of our life span. I think non-formal learning is a different side. But the problem is that there are no formal ways for formulizing informal learning. What I believe is that we should make informal learning equal to formal learning.
Researcher: How do you think we can make the three formal of learning equal?
Respondent: Well, the concept of making them equal depends on the context. But the answer of the question ‘how’ is difficult. In my opinion, it has to be started from political level. It needs a political commitment. In our country political parties are strong in the sense that they have good and unified cadres. They should be trained for educational purpose. Educational reforms should be the agenda of political parties.
Making the three forms of learning is a reform in education. If we see the countries who have adopted this strategy have done it in two ways. The first strategy is adding values to the existing system of education such as in curriculum, teacher education, teaching, learning, etc. The second strategy is that starting a new system of education – a complete reform. I think Nepal should adopt the second strategy because we have not touched the part of informal learning yet.
We can find some good practices of educational reform in international level. For example, Finland has done very good in education by focusing it education system on teachers. Teachers are at the center of entire education system. They are responsible for developing curriculum, giving moral education, raising social awareness, etc. We can see the example of Uganda as well. It is like Nepal but has done good progress in education. It started through political commitment. We also need to have a firm commitment at political level. The nation has to be fully devoted to bring such commitment into reality. The government has to create environment and all of us should work on this.
Including political leaders and their cadres all the citizens of this country have to improve their attitude. The best means of improving one’s attitude is informal education. So, a firm political commitment for education reform is obligatory.
Researcher: What do you mean by making the three forms of learning equal? Do you mean that we have to certify informal and non-formal learners as we have done to formal learners?
Respondent: No, it’s impossible. Giving moral education doesn’t mean giving certificates. It’s more often a socialization process. Moral education is not necessarily given in school. It can be through citizen orientation. For example, while providing citizenship to an individual we should give 2-3 days orientation. It can be either informally or non-formally so as to let them know what his/her responsibilities for the nation are. We have to promote such type of informal learning.
Researcher: Sir, in your opinion can we provide opportunity for the informal learning to enter into formal schooling? For example an individual who has never gone to school but claims that he/she has the knowledge equivalent to the Grade X student. Can we certify his/her knowledge and allow him/her to start his/her formal education from Grade XI? What kind of mechanism a county has to develop for this?
Respondent: Yes, we can do that and it has been doing to some extent in the form of open learning, private tests, etc. Even we have some very good examples where informal and non-formal learning have been recognized. For example, we have a professor who doesn’t have the experience of formal education even of Grade I but he has adequate knowledge to be a good professor.
Researcher: That was perhaps an exceptional case in which his/her outstanding performance was taken into account. The question is can we do this in a national scale?
Respondent: I think the nation should be able to do this. The main problem is culture and I don’t think it can be done through a single standardized tests. It needs different parameters. We have to go beyond that.
Researcher: People need to have their formal degree because without it they can’t be employed in the job market. Hence they have to lose social prestige and status. Then shouldn’t we certify them and open doors for further learning and employment?
Respondent: Certification is ok but main thing is enhancement of knowledge and skills. There are examples where people with higher qualification are unemployed or less employed or holding inferior position than the one who has relatively lower qualification. It is because they are more efficient than the so-called higher degree holders. People learn more than just to read and write. They have different skills and attitude. Certification should be on the basis of quality of learning of those skills. So certification should be done through proper assessment of knowledge and skills that are learnt informally and non-formally. So, in my opinion certification of informal learning can be done at national scale and is necessary.
Researcher: Who do you think should take the responsibility of assessing the skills and knowledge of informal learners for certification?
Respondent: I think it depends on the type of capacity to be assessed. If it is skill then there is already an institution for skill test that is CTEVT. It has to be promoted. I don’t think a new institution has to be established. From my research I have found that our institutions have potentiality but the culture of using such potentiality has not been developed. If such environment is created and the people are committed the existing institutions can perform this task. So the existing institutions have to be promoted and kept beyond the influence of selfish politics.
Researcher: What problems do you see to identify, recognize and validate the precious indigenous knowledge of our country?
Respondent: I don’t think all the knowledge of this type should be certified. Certification is an artificial thing. The main thing is recognition such indigenous knowledge and skills. Government should bring some schemes for recognition and the local government should promote such knowledge and skills. And, I am not in the position to say that all types of informal learning can be formalized. All types of knowledge can’t be assessed and certified. Through informal learning we need to change the entire social system of our country. So, it is impossible to achieve this goal by forcefully certifying all types of informal knowledge and skills.
Researcher: To create an environment conducive for enhancing lifelong learning and continuing education what additional provisions have to be made in Nepal?
Respondent: As I said already there should be commitment from the people from top to bottom level. We have to realize that we need to update our knowledge and continue to throughout our lives. I don’t think all of us are ready for this. Both government and public have some weaknesses. These weaknesses have to be overcome, especially by the political parties. Politicians have to realize it and fulfill their commitment.
Researcher: Can we identify all type of knowledge, skill and competence and put them under a single National Qualifications Framework? What problems and difficulty do you see in our culturally diversified nation?
Respondent: Certainly, it will bring a lot of difficulties and problems. Different variable may emerge. There may be much variation. Some undefined skills may come. They need time to be defined. There may be many problems but what I believe is that we have to do it. It’s possible. There are some hopes to because general people have been aware. Some of them are energetic and enthusiastic but we need to have commitment.
Researcher: Sir, anything you would like to say at the end of our conversation?
Respondent: It’s alright. Our education system is in confusion on whether to follow Western philosophy or Easter philosophy. So far as your attempt to take the three forms of learning in an equal footing, it’s great but to make it contributive you need to have diligence. All the best!
Researcher: Thank you very much sir. I will try my best!

Transcription of interview 4

Transcription of interview 4
Date: July 17, 2009 (Friday) Time 3:30 PM to 4 PM
Researcher: In terms of recognition and investment it seems that the nation has given importance only to formal education. Should we make the three modes of learning: formal, non-formal and informal equal? If yes, how can we make them equal?
Respondent: Though there is more investment in formal learning Non-formal learning has also got little investment. So far as the case of making the three modes of learning equivalent there is no doubt that they have to be made equal but the question of how to make them so is still not completely answered. Some documents have spoken on this regard. MOE has worked on this to some extent, for example, the School Sector Reform Plan. However, it is not enough. It needs to be discussed extensively in order to find it opportunities and challenges at level wise and discipline wise and some sort of qualification standard has to be maintained. To make informal and non-formal learner adjustable with formal learning some sort of bridge course should be completed.
Researcher: So, in your opinion we can certify the ones who have come from non-formal and informal background, isn’t it sir?
Respondent: Yes we can do. We can certify the ones who have come informally and non-formally as has been done by CTEVT. But certificate doesn’t necessarily mean that he/she is eligible everywhere. But on the basis of knowledge and skills acquired s/he should be allowed to go for higher education.
Researcher: If so, in your opinion if one has got certificate of B. A. equivalent after the assessment of his/her knowledge, skill and competence then should he/she be allowed to compete, let’s suppose, for section officer in the Public Service Commission?
Respondent: It’s an extreme case, but personally I am positive. There should be a system of assessing knowledge and skills of this type. It has to be systematized. There’s somehow a system for this for example private study and Open University. It has also encouraged non-formal and informal learning but mechanism has to be developed extensively. It has to be more flexible fo doing so. Some people have done masters without going to college, isn’t it an example?
Researcher: The case of providing the opportunity of assessment and certification for private students, especially by Tribhuvan University in Nepal, is in a small scale but the question here is whether we can develop a mechanism to include even indigenous and cultural knowledge at national scale who do you think should develop such mechanism?
Respondent: An umbrella body can be there according to disciplined and there can be many branches – one office only can’t do it. For example, there may be many aspects that have to be inculcated such as technical skill, vocational skill, general skill and other indigenous knowledge. So, separate branches have to be developed to include all types of knowledge and skill. The umbrella body can develop framework to identify national qualifications.
Researcher: Sir, in our society the products of formal learning have certificates; they have better chances of opportunity as a consequence they have better social prestige. If we certified informal and non-formal learners as equivalently as formal learners do you think they can compete with the formal learners and grab employment opportunities?
Respondent: If he she has ability and the certification is given according to such ability then, I think he or she is able to compete with the ones who come from formal schooling. I see no problem there. The people who have learned through their lives are able to get success. There are many things beside qualifications that help them solve their life problems. Academic qualifications that we accumulate through formal schooling are not only the major things for getting success.
Researcher: Obviously, people need to learn throughout their life which is technically called lifelong learning and continuing education. For enhancing it what provisions have been made in our country and what should be done for its further enhancement?
Respondent: There are no particular programs as such but you can see some initiatives such as non-formal education. It is provided in three phases which can be further enhanced. The main thing for this is that the nation has to provide venue and opportunity for lifelong learning. Whoever can do on their own should be provided with a minimum condition to flourish it. Lifelong opportunities should be created at the local level. At the central level resource centers have to be established. Opportunities have to be grabbed by the people so that awareness has to be created.
Researcher: Every professional-such as a teacher, a doctor, and an engineer- needs to update their knowledge and skills. What kind of strategy the government needs to adopt?
Respondent: It’s not only the responsibility of government. Both government and individual should equally be responsible for this. If the individuals are not active and willing to grab the opportunity government alone can do nothing. But government must provide venue for grabbing the opportunity. The policy, rules and regulations should facilitate and promote it. Moreover, there should be coordination among INGO and NGO, community organizations and private organization. Mainly government should play the role of facilitator and backward communities have to be identified and promoted to be able to grab the opportunities.
Researcher: What problems do you see if we validate informal learning in the context of Nepal where racial hierarchy is still prevalent? For example, the skill of a Brahmin to perform religious ritual and the skill of a cobbler to mend shoes may fall on the same level.
Respondent: I think if the skills of such types are made equal it will reduce social inequality and discrimination. All types of works/labor are equal so the workers/labors of all kinds should be treated equally. I don’t think that literate people should instruct others and others should work. If he/she has skills he/she can work independently and the society should create environment for this. I don’t think such provision of leveling the skills of all types will create conflict. In a sense such era of discrimination has ended. The oppressed group will resist if the member of such group are discriminated.
Researcher: Undoubtedly, Nepal is a diversified nation. There are various types of indigenous knowledge. How can we inculcate all of these indigenous knowledge and skills in a single National Qualifications Framework? How do you think we should manage them?
Respondent: The umbrella body that I have already talked should be responsible for this. I think our culturally and indigenous diversity are our valuable assets. If we promote them we can reduce external dependence of our country. So far as including the diversified indigenous skills and knowledge into a National Qualifications Framework is concerned I think the works has to done at local level first. I don’t think all knowledge and skills should be brought at the same place. National standard has to be made and implemented in a local context. I don’t think there will be unsolvable problems but enough endeavors have to be made. Different counties of the world have worked for this. I think we must do this ultimately.
Researcher: Sir, would you like to say anything at the end of our discussion?
Respondent: Well, as I have already said we have to recognize the non-formal and informal learning taking diversity and cultural differences into account. But we have to be committed on this.
Researcher: Sir, thank you very much for giving me your valuable times.

Transcription of Interview 3

Transcription of Interview 3
Date: July 18, 2009 (Saturday) Time 11: 18 AM to 12:10 PM
Researcher: Sir, Namaste!
Respondent: Sir, Namaste!
Researcher: sir, may I have your few minutes today?
Respondent: Definitely sir.
Researcher: Sir, I am going to interview you online! It takes about 30 minutes Sir.
Respondent: Alright sir. I am ready now.
Researcher: Sir, I think I shouldn't do the briefing of my research as you have guided me many of the times. Actually, the interview guide I have prepared now is based on the quantitative findings that I requested you to fill up two months ago.
Respondent: ok sir
Researcher: Sir, the first question: How can we make people free to acquire knowledge through formal, non-formal and informal means?
Respondent: People learn from their social and natural world every day. Society has developed different institutions to transmit knowledge, skills and competences necessary for life from different modes. Broadly, they are formal, non-formal and informal. The formal one was specialized, developed and expanded throughout the world after industrialization in Europe. This wave has been global and pervasive. However, most of the knowledge, skills and competencies have been taught and learned non-formally and informally. In the latter modes, there are no provisions of certification and accreditation.
Researcher: Among three modes of learning – formal, non-formal and informal – which mode of learning is more important in your opinion?
Respondent: Learning can be possible everywhere. In the course of interaction with other members of society and natural world, different knowledge and skills are generated and established. Formal education can and has been contributing for that. But non-formal and informal education can also contribute significantly to impart knowledge and skills to the learners. Therefore the modes need to be blended for betterment of the common people.
Researcher: O K sir. You said these three modes of learning should be blended. Can you elaborate this opinion sir? How is it possible to blend them?
Respondent: The certification institution need to overview different modes and develop a viable and feasible modus operandi. It will be possible only after blending. After certification, the learners can also join in formal education. Is not it sir?
Researcher: Yes sir. Sir, how can we recognize and certify informal and non-formal skills, knowledge and competences?
Respondent: Specifically we can set up an institution or modus operandi to recognize, certify and provide accreditation the learners through informal and non-formal modes. It would be better to provide options to the learners to take part in exam for their certification. If so, the learners can easily be ready to pay the cost for their certification. The institution should be established in the centre in the beginning. The model should be developed and tested in three districts in the first phase. After consolidation, it can be replicated to other districts gradually.
Researcher: Do you think such system of certification, if developed, helps to enhance lifelong learning and continuing education?
Respondent: Yes. I think it should be done in a phase wise manner. In the first phase, government needs to appoint a core team, train them and assess the pros and cons of three modes. Then different streams, curriculum, examination procedures and schedules should be developed and notified to the applicants. After thorough scrutiny of the learners/ applicants, the institution should give them equivalent certificate similar to that of formal educational institution. This will open the avenues to the informal and non-formal learner to keep on learning throughout their life.
Researcher: What type of curriculum do you want to develop for informal learners? If they are bound with curriculum then doesn't it become like formal one?
Respondent: What I mean is to develop a framework to assess their competence to certify. It would not be confusing if we give the term framework for different streams specifically, technical, professional or general.
Researcher: Yes sir. I understood. And sir, what problem do you see to identify and recognize the precious indigenous knowledge/skills and cultural knowledge of Nepal so as to certify the people who deserve them?
Respondent: The institutions need to synthesize the indigenous and cultural knowledge and skills. The people overlook the indigenous knowledge and skill. The richness of indigenous and cultural knowledge have not been compiled and compared cross-culturally. The investors are not that ready to incorporate them.
Researcher: Do you think the people who are from non-formal and informal background can compete with the ones from formal background, especially in the job market?
Respondent: I think they can also compete with the people with formal background. Some people having educated in engineering and natural sciences have switched to other sectors. Some of the people having informal education have done well. Due to expansion of the formal education, people have been hopeless. If we start certification and accreditation process, we can enkindle their hope again. NESP had also started the process and some farmers, carpenters and mechanics have been professors.
Researcher: Sir, what other provision should our nation make to enhance lifelong learning and continuing education?
Respondent: People think formal education is only education. When they pass certain degree, it will end. Majority of the people have no concept of lifelong education. First of all government and other stakeholders need to clear the confusion. The training curriculum needs to incorporate the essence of the lifelong and continuing education. Now there are different agencies to make public awareness. Every people need to update their knowledgebase to cope up with the changed context. For instance, the khalasis need to be literate and able to scrutinize the identity cards of the passengers. This can be applied in other walks of life. The different bodies of government and NGOs can contribute if we want to intervene through policy.
Researcher: Sir, thank you very much for such valuable opinions. Sir, is there anything you would like to add finally?
Respondent: I think it would be wonderful if you suggest a better model to certify and provide accreditation the informal and non-formal learners. It will be a proactive project. I wish your success in this endeavor.
Researcher: Thank you sir.

Transcription of Interview 2

Transcription of Interview 2
Date: July 15, 2009 Time: 1 PM to 2 PM
Researcher: What do you think the nation should do to make people free to acquire knowledge through formal, non-formal and informal means?
Respondent: Obviously, there is a worldwide struggle among the three modalities of education delivery. In formal education setting there is more formality. As the nation wants to be formal it focuses on formal schooling. State wants formality. It accepts bureaucracy and vice-versa. There is more funding in it. As the state has recognized it, it has got more importance. It deserves symbolic capital as stated by Pierre Bourdieu.
The prestigious and high earning employees are from formal learning. Those who came informally were found having contradictory opinion with the state. Change agents were found as the ones who went through informal schooling. The products of formal schooling were found change resist. As Bernstein, who propounded the concept of restricted and elaborated code, says that informal learners are more open and flexible. As they are not recognized by the state they want change.
On the other hand the people from formal schooling are restricted by the state structure. When one gets board first in SLC he doesn’t complains even if he doesn’t like the state policy as he is bound to obey it. It’s a dialectical phenomenon. So, there is a never-ending war between these two: change resists (formal learners) and change agents (informal learner). You can see unemployed people on the street, who are not identified; neither are they recognized by the state. It develops the tendency of skill exchange. Informal learners follow antenna culture. That is to say they open their mind to learn all the time. They learn on the basis of lived reality. In this way informal learning has greater scope and horizon in comparison to formal learning.
Power scientists Cohort and Habermas discuss about power relation. They claim that there is politics or power in everything. Formal schooling protects the state. Whatever the state wants the formal schools fulfill. If you weaken formal schools it weakens the state. So, the state has given the responsibility of protecting it to formal schooling. But we can provide the responsibility of protecting the state to non-formal and informal modalities as well but it needs a philosophical package.
Conflict is mounting in our country because the nation couldn’t identify …it couldn’t reach to the grass-root level and encompass the indigenous skills and knowledge. The state applied blanket approach in this diversified nation in the name of formal schooling that killed indigenous skills and knowledge. Even formal schooling couldn’t provide indigenous security. Consequently the conflict mounted in the nation.
To overcome with this problem the state should make intervention on the basis of context, content and culture. The three forms of learning should go in equal footing, I mean in a triangular approach so that it will be easier to ventilate from one form of learning to another. It will have multiple advantages. There will be the possibility of bubble economy. People will be self-sustained leading to the development of micro economy. People will be self-employed that will engender the feeling of recognition and respect in the society. If we are able to do so there will be true respect of all three forms of learning. It will not denounce the one and appreciate the other. The approach of appreciative enquiry would work on this regard.
Researcher: You gave some profound and appropriate philosophical background to my issue. I would like to ask a bit more specific question. In your opinion can we provide certification to non-formal and informal learning as equivalent to formal learning?
Respondent: Yes, we can certify non-formal and informal learning. You can see the example in the skill-test certification strategy of CTEVT in our country. It has recognized the skills of an individual. It’s a good practice. But we need to do it in a large scale at national level. It will increase royalty to the nation, increase employment opportunity and the cultural capital of an individual.
Researcher: As you said earlier there are precious indigenous knowledge and skills learnt informally in our country. Can we identify them and keep them in a national qualifications framework? If we can, what problems do you see and how do you think we can solve those problems?
Respondent: Two years ago we developed a National Curricular Framework. There are some problems and weaknesses in it. It has also talked about informal learning. It also talks about local curriculum. It needs to be analyzed critically. It has not given importance to non-formal and informal learning as equally as formal learning. It’s incomplete. There should be level wise ventilation.
In the past different principles were adopted to reach to the unreached group of the country. The principle of unity-in-diversity and equality-in-diversity couldn’t work properly. So we need to adopt the principle of equity-in-diversity. You can see this phenomenon (bringing parity of esteem in formal, non-formal and informal learning) through this perspective as well. The three forms of learning are different with different upbringings. Rather than making them one let them develop on their own equally. On the basis of appreciative enquiry, through the perspective of appreciative enquiry we need recognize them in equal footing. Everybody is important and everybody is different. Same thing applies to the case of three forms of learning.
Researcher: Sir, the major problem in our country is the social status. One of the determining factors of high social status is employment opportunity. As you said earlier the person from formal schooling hold prestigious job positions. In such case, how can we provide equal employment opportunity to the ones who come non-formally and informally?
Respondent: Well, you know, the concept of employment opportunity is relative. Even all formal learners do not want to be employed; rather they have the interests and ability to be entrepreneur or to be self-employed such as opening a motorcycle workshop. According to choice theory people select their work. Here it is not the case what job is given – but what he or she chooses to do. We shouldn’t make people dependent. The state has to let them choose. Our schooling should leave them in the world of work.
We can provide equal certification. Equal in the sense that – Bandura’s leveling theory doesn’t work here …. Our SSR has discussed about it a little on level-wise ventilation. There is a ventilation system between technical education and general education in different level in Japan. It is called accreditation. We started technical education in the past. As we don’t have technical education at university level there is no ventilation. For higher studies people are compelled to join formal mode or to discontinue their study. State has not given due emphasis to technical education. A little progress can be observed on distance education system. As you know One Year B. Ed on the distance mode has been recognized by the state. People have been promoted because of that degree. So, what I want to say is that it is a good practice but it cannot be achieved without philosophical guidance. The state has to inculcate all three forms of learning
Researcher: Sir, let me ask you a specific question. Suppose that a person has never gone to school but he/she claims that s/he has the knowledge equivalent to the one who has passed B. Ed. Can we give him or her admission to Master Degree? What problem do you see?
Respondent: You asked a very good question. This system is in the US. One can take the test of all semesters at once if s/he wishes. But the thing is that we have to follow natural rule of law. It should be done on the basis of cognitive development. You need to use the theory of Piaget’s and Vygotsky’s to deal with this. Piaget talks about individual constructivism whereas Vygotsky talks about social constructivism. If one has constructed knowledge individually it’s ok but society has to recognize it. Taking both of these philosophies into account your question has to be addressed. Social constructivism is also important. For example if a 5-year boy claims for Master’s admission the social constructivism opposes it. He needs to have his maturity as well. On the basis of cognition he is not developed so we can’t go against Vygotsky’s Zone of Proximal Development (ZPD) which is recent and no theory has been able to defeat it so far. So not going against the theory of Piaget and Vygotsky we can provide admission to the one who has not been through formal schooling. I see no problem there. You can see some such examples. Bal Krishna Sama didn’t have formal schooling more than I Sc but Tribhuvan University awarded him with PhD degree. Many people have done PhD on his works and life. So, I claim it can be done…
Researcher: The case of Bal Krishna Sama was unique. He was an outstanding personality, recognizing his outstanding ability and contribution he was awarded. Here the question is whether we should develop a mechanism where all Nepalese could have an opportunity to test their knowledge and skill and get certified and open up avenue for lifelong learning and continuing education?
Respondent: You raised a very good issue. The nation has to provide this opportunity to get his/her knowledge and skills certified. I agree with this point. We have to develop such mechanism to identify the knowledge and skill of an individual. If s/he is interested and ready to take the test then the nation has to provide this opportunity. But it has to done on the basis of cognition and social constructivism.
In order to develop a mechanism we need to do piloting from the parameter of equity-in-diversity. I think the result of piloting will be good. Observing the international practices I can claim that it is possible and will have multiple advantages. It will increase rate of return and employability. Furthermore it will reduce the cost drastically.
Researcher: What can we do to motivate people for lifelong learning and continuing education? For example, how can we make the people of all profession for example teacher, doctor, engineer, etc. enthusiastic to update his/her knowledge?
Respondent: We have to recognize skills and knowledge at first. The state and the immediate colleague have to recognize it. In selection process the state has to give choice. There should be right man in right place. The tendency of recognizing and putting right man in right place has not been established in Nepal so far. There is nepotism, favoritism and sycophancy in the country. People’s knowledge should be recognized and given them choice for proper job placement. Recognition will preserve and foster local and indigenous knowledge and skills.
The education system has been undergoing through the process full of discrimination. There is frustration even in formal schooling. Only a handful number of people have got advantages. People have not been in the right place according to their ability and interest. Formal schooling itself is in such limbo. So the condition in the case of informal and non-formal is very pathetic. That’s why there is conflict and the state has become fragile. On the perspective of equity-in-diversity the state has to give intervention only then it can give good results.
Researcher: Please make me further clear on how we can adjust informal and non-formal learners in the job market.
Respondent: In our Three-Year Interim Plan a little is talked on this regard. But it hasn’t taken the three forms of learning in an equal footing as we have been taking it now. The state has given less emphasis to less formal learning. This year’s government policy and budge didn’t give required importance. It will certainly increase conflict. For solving this, employability has to be ensured for non-formal and informal learning. There is challenge in education system. The state is not clear in philosophy of education system. Political parties do not have consensus in the type of education system. One (a political party) talks about pro-people education (janabadi sikshya) but it seems rather blur as no modalities have been so far postulated. That’s why we don’t have to spread big hopes to the people. As claimed by Earnest Hemingway ‘little is beautiful’. Let’s start from small things by piloting. Everybody needs to be made clear on this. Gradually it has to be increased. In the plan, policy and program it has to be inculcated. As per the interest and need of the people of diversified background we can give programs to the people no matter whether they are of Himal, Pahad or Tarai.
Researcher: Sir, let me ask you a specific question. If a person has come informally and accredited and certified equivalent to the B A level, can we allow them to fight for Section Officer as per the provision of Public Service Commission?
Respondent: Yes, we can. If he or she has the competency required by the state s/he should be allowed. There are 5-7 competences discussed by the scholar Morgan. If s/he is tested and deserves that competency it will not weaken and harm the nation. I claim it will be more advantageous to the nation. It makes the nation stronger. The system of reservation will ruin the nation as it never provides environment conducive for enhancing the competence of its citizens. However the competence is acquired, it could be either through non-formal or informal, if s/he deserves the competence s/he be allowed. But I again repeat the system of reservation is harmful to the nation.
Researcher: Can we list out all the knowledge, skill and competence that could be acquired through three modes of learning and keep them under a single structure?
Respondent: We don’t need to keep them in the same frame. But I am not telling that it is difficult to keep them in a single structure. Let them come from whatever mode is viable for them. We have no problem from where they come, what we need is competent human-power. We don’t care the tree of mango while selecting mango fruit, just we need sweet mango. I think I made you clear.
Researcher: Sir, thank you very much for giving me time despite your busy schedule.

Transcription of Interview 1

Transcription of Interview 1
Date: July 13, 2009 (Monday) Time 11: 18 AM to 1:40 PM
Researcher: Sir, Namaste!
Respondent: Namaskar Sir
Researcher: sir, may I have your few minutes today?
Respondent: Definitely sir.
Researcher: Sir, I am going to interview you online! It takes about 30 minute Sir.
Respondent: alright sir. I am ready now.
Researcher: Sir, I think I shouldn't do the briefing of my research as you have guided me many of the times. Actually, the interview guide I have prepared now is based on the quantitative findings that I requested you to fill up two months ago.
Respondent: ok sir
Researcher: Sir, the first question: How can we make people free to acquire knowledge through formal, non-formal and informal means?
Respondent: I did not understand your question: "free to acquire knowledge" means in terms of money or other obligations?
Researcher: I mean, in Nepal people have freedom to learn formally as there are many schools and colleges but due to the less emphasis on non-formal and informal education people have been compelled to either go to school or deprived of education.
Respondent: In my point of view: All the three forms formal, non-formal and informal education are important in our life as ways of educating and no one can complement other...(though people may say them as complementary) and only important thing is how to value the knowledge acquired through those form of education. Only one way will be incomplete. Promoting equal opportunity to learn through all these means will be a maximum benefit to the learners. The charm and value of each of these forms of education cannot be complemented by others. These forms can be used as balancing tool for the total education system to give knowledge to citizens on different areas for life skills and professions depending on what situation the person (educatee) is in.
Researcher: Sir, thank you for your broad perspective to analyze the phenomenon. Sir, can you give some particular strategies to be adopted to emphasize non-formal and informal learning as equally as formal learning in Nepal?
Respondent: Sir, in my opinion, at first the education system as a hole should be focused on target groups of formal, informal, and non-formal education. Then based on mapping of these target groups, the education policy should be made on "how the out of school children, less or non educated adults and olds (senior citizens) be engaged in learning through their daily life activities, motivate them for meaningful learning and bring their skill into account". Their need should be heard, their ideas should be appreciated and their way to learn should be valued. For that first of all non-formal and informal media or methods of learning should be promoted in the society by the national and local government, not totally depending on foreign supported NGOs/INGOs.
Researcher: Sir, thank you very much. Do you think the ones who come from non-formal and informal means will be able to adjust with the people who are from formal education system? If they are not then what should we do to make them able to compete with the one who come from formal means?
Respondent: That's why I am talking about balancing each other by the total education system. The need of the people should be assessed and programs should be intended to develop a complete skill but it should be clear that formal, informal and non-formal are not complement to each other. The one who comes from non-formal and informal education can be equal or even better than the one who come from formal schooling. They can adjust themselves with the people who are from formal education system. I remember one example: my father never went to formal school in his life, but whenever people had to write rajinama, tamasuk, and other applications for local people, they used to come to my father and my father was better valued than those who have done SLC, or I. A or even B.A. with his skill. I have seen many people in society who never went to formal school but have better adjusted in society than those who have formal education in terms of life skill, daily life problem solving and dealing with other people.
Researcher: Thank you very much indeed! You have cited a very good example of informal learning. But sir, these days employment has been more important than it was in the past. If we have to make the non-formal and informal learners equally competitive like the formal learners what should we do? Actually, how can we assess one’s competence while he/she is selected as an employee? How can we provide same degree of employment opportunity to non-formal and informal learners as formal learners?
Respondent: It is not the degree that judges the skill; it is the skill that judges skill. If a person has skill in his area of work or profession, that should be valued, how he/she learnt is not important in a society that values knowledge. It is a problem to the society where certificate is valued more than actual skill from very beginning. I met a singer who has very good singing skill (art) and he did not have much formal education, but got visa to come to USA and then he applied for permanent resident visa and he got it being talent in singing but not based on his formal degree. Many PhD and Masters Degree holders from Nepal come to USA and they don't get permanent resident visa at a time without getting good job except for DV holders. Next important thing is: skill based employment but not certificate based employment. Do you think any formal school degree holder can be a good climbing guide to the Everest? Do you think any formal degree holder can be good swim master? Do you think any formal degree holder can be a good singer? But one thing: if a person has skill in one area and tries to seek job in other area, it is always problem, no matter what form of education he/she has. Formal degree is valued only when the job needs formal training or education, otherwise skill-based job don't need degrees. Next thing: informal and non-formal education should be valued based on skills the person has or learns or can perform and jobs should be emphasized in those areas. Limitations of each form of education should be understood and therefore, their areas of job market should be developed accordingly.
Researcher: Sir, you gave a nice example on how informal skill is valued in a developed country but the case is different in Nepal. The example like of the musician seems to be idealistic for the people in Nepal. In this case we need to recognize, accredit and certify the non-formal and informal learning outcomes. So, I would like to have your opinion on how can people acquire skills, knowledge and competences relevant to their lives? If they are through non-formal and informal means, can they be recognized or certified as equivalently as formal learning?
Respondent: Radio Nepal takes "voice test" to be a singer. CTEVT takes skill tests to certify the skills learned by an individual in an informal or non-formal ways. A cook gives cooking test in a hotel and can be a good chef (professional cook) without formal degree in cooking, a carpenter can appear in a test to certify his/her skill but more the employer will require is skill at last, not the certificate. Certification is a process of grading the level of skill the person has but it is not to equalize as formal education degree. I mean, formal education degree and non-formal education or informal education certification cannot be same. In terms of value, it depends upon what specialized areas they have and can perform in their areas of skill. But one thing is important: everybody should have fundamental skills of reading, writing, listening, speaking, and performing no matter now they learn. If a cook knows how to cook better but cannot read or write would be problematic. He/she should be able to tell his/her recipe in writing, calculating and analyzing why. These skills are fundamental to all people.
Reading, writing, speaking, listening of a language at fundamental level for daily life should not be counted as skill, they should be guaranteed to all citizens. Other levels of learning should be viewed in terms of formal, non-formal or informal education.
Researcher: Thank you once again for your number of examples and plausible response on the matter. Sir, can we list out non-formal and informal learning skills as you have said and keep them in a framework along with the grades or stages in terms of the complexity of learning these skills? Such practice has been called, so far I know, as the National Qualifications Framework, which encompasses all three forms of learning: formal, non-formal and informal?
Respondent: I don't agree with National Qualification Framework to divide people on different classes based on their skill. I can guarantee that one person’s complete skill can never be understood by others and hence cannot be gauged by a framework. Only, we can do is how to motivate people to perform better in their areas of learning, working or doing (in profession). NQF is a way to deprive people to develop their originality and value their ideas from each other. People will look at each other from the frame of level of qualifications they have acquired and those who perform better in one situation cannot perform better in other situation and how can we develop a single framework to measure the skill of people. However, if some people want to know how much they know and what level they are: there should be close test through which people know their level and try to increase their level of learning and further skill development as per their need.
Researcher: Sir, it's alright. Could you elaborate about the type of 'CLOSE TEST' you have envisaged, please?
Respondent: I mean it should be a test through which the person can judge his or level of learning, or skill through a test that the scores he knows but nobody else otherwise if he/she tells others. There should not be any judge to say you have this level, but the system should display a result to the person without displaying to anybody else unless the person likes to do so. The system itself should be the judge, an impersonal judge.
Researcher: Sir, what type of system do you want to be developed for this?
Respondent: For example: If we want to develop a system to motivate carpenters for learning: Then list the skills of a carpenter in an order of complexity and invite people for training what level they want to join or what level they want to improve their skill without training but by self learning. A carpenter can make very good design but what are good designs should be availed to them and they can increase their skill either by attending training or by trying themselves in their workshop without going out for any training. Just provide them the quality of good furniture: like A class furniture, B class furniture, C class furniture...and they try to go for higher level furniture to make in their workshop/job rather than labeling them as A Grade Carpenter, B grade Carpenter...every carpenter has potential to build A grade furniture if they are given resources and skill development opportunities. Just labeling them will not be positive motivation to them. So NQF will label people but not the object. Let’s develop a framework to classify objects or products...not the people. Then people will try for better product then there will be better learning. Our system of education labels people based on their qualification, not the product.
Researcher: Thank you sir. We are nearly at the end of the conversation. Sir, in your opinion what type of mechanism should we develop to do so? Can a single authority at national level and their branches to the district, and VDC/Municipality level function for managing and monitoring in the Test Centers (at the workshop as you said)?
Respondent: Mr. A deserves first division, not the essay Mr. A wrote. Ms. B deserves distinction, but not the teaching of B in the classroom. I mean we are classifying people based on NQF but not their works. I think the national education system should clearly define the skills not the tests scores. Tests, if need should be conducted as per need to evaluate performance but not to certify it but to guarantee that person has that skill. Testing should be a responsibility of an agency which needs it, not the educating agency. Is any TV program on family planning tested on general people and certified? A radiobroadcasting program educates people about how to speak with confidence with others and is it required by the same radio station to evaluate whether people learnt it or not...I think educating agencies especially non-formal and informal are not for grading but motivating people to perform better. Therefore, if any organization needs a person with that quality, it should conduct a test, but not by the educating agency. The educating agency should motive people to learn more, perform better and improve their life quality. Informal or non-formal education are not within scope of certification, as they are very broad, more general but in case of specific skills, concerned organization can conduct practical test for job seekers.
Researcher: I am happy that you made me see the phenomenon through a broader perspective. Sir, besides the things we shared what should we do to enhance lifelong learning and continuing education, especially in Nepal?
Respondent: Sir, in my opinion we are much focused on tests but not the product. Test is not a good way to measure product or quality of a person.
Researcher: Yes sir, really. Hitherto existing concept of 'quality education' focused on test scores rather than the quality itself.
Respondent: For informal and non-formal learning, there should not be any tests, rather there should be opportunity for performance, value and appreciation to performance and NQF will be only testing tool, measuring people from their grades but it is actually not a true representation of person’s skill acquired in informal setting. Informal or non-formal learning environment makes a great differences and national level to local level education agencies should develop such framework through which people learn skills they need and perform better in their life. Next thing we are trying to equalize informal and non-formal education with formal education, which is never possible. Concentration and diversification are the great differences in them. Concave and convex learning with respect to time and skills can't be equalized.
Researcher: Sir, if a person wishes to join to a higher level in the formal education system, let’s say to BA level without studying up to IA, can he/she be allowed for admission if he/she deserves the intended skills and knowledge? Because of the development in the field of ICTs it has been possible to acquire knowledge and skills informally, hasn't it sir?
Respondent: Definitely, if the person can do it, it is his/her responsibility to decide and judge him/herself...and finally bears the consequences...as per his/her choice. To join a BA program, IA should not be a barrier if the person wants. Even if a BA majoring in English wants to join physics in M Sc should be allowed because it is the person himself/herself to judge his/her ability not the tests in a level. If the person cannot perform well, he/she will drop out of it or do very hard work to succeed or even can do better than others from the same area. If a singer, never joined formal education, wants to join MA in singing, should be allowed to do it if she takes responsibility to fit into the program with her skills in singing.
Researcher: Sir, thank you very much for your valuable viewpoints. Sir, anything you want to say....?
Respondent: Thank you so much Kapil Sir for this opportunity to talk to you about various issues of informal and non-formal education. Again, I would like to remind you that I am not an expert in these areas and these are my opinions at the present context, may be different from past and also may differ in future.
Researcher: It's alright sir. Thank you very much for giving me time. Thank you sir! Bye sir!!!

Kim: A Novel by Rudyard Kipling

Kim: A Novel by Rudyard Kipling
Collected and Edited by Kapil Dev Regmi

A brief biography of the author
Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936) was born in Bombay, but educated in England at the United Services College. In 1882 he returned to India, where he worked for Anglo-Indian newspapers. His literary career began with Departmental Ditties (1886), but subsequently he became chiefly known as a writer of short stories. A prolific writer, he achieved fame quickly. Kipling was the poet of the British Empire and its yeoman(farmers), the common soldier, whom he glorified in many of his works, in particular Plain Tales from the Hills (1888) and Soldiers Three (1888), collections of short stories with roughly and affectionately drawn soldier portraits. In 1894 appeared his Jungle Book, which became a children's classic all over the world. Kipling was the recipient of many honorary degrees and other awards. In 1907, he was awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature, making him the first English language writer to receive the prize, and to date he remains its youngest recipient. In 1926 he received the Gold Medal of the Royal Society of Literature.

One Paragraph Summary of the Novel
Kim is Rudyard Kipling’s most enduringly successful serious novel. It was published in 1901 and is the story of the orphaned son of a soldier in the Irish regiment. His full name is Kimball O’Hara, but he is known, as the title suggests, as Kim. The novel takes place in India, then a British colony, and Kim spends his childhood as a waif (orphan) in Lahore where he meets a Tibetan ‘lama’ or holy man who is on a quest(search for) to find a mystical river. Kim joins him on his journey, but meets his father’s old regiment. He is adopted by them and is sent to a school although in his holidays he continues with his wandering. Partly as a result of his spirited lifestyle, Kim is selected by Colonel Creighton of the Ethnological Survey who notices his promise as a secret agent for the British. Under the instruction of the Indian, Hurree Babu, he becomes a distinguished member of the secret service, getting hold of the papers of some Russian spies in the Himalayas. The novel is notable for its detailed portrait of Indian life, its religions and some of the humbler aspects of a land with a great population and associated problems. Some of Kipling’s jingoism(patriotism) does show through in the latter stages of the novel, however, but this does not detract much from what is a highly successful study of life in India and of a boy who combines both Oriental and Irish and therefore East and West in his nature.

Characters
1. Abdullah- The son of the local sweetmeats seller, Abdullah is one of Kim's playmates in Lahore.
2. Mahbub Ali - Known throughout India as the most famous horse trader, Mahbub Ali, characterized by his red beard and his quick temper, is a devout Muslim from Afghanistan and a close friend to Kim. It is he who bestowed Kim with his moniker "Friend of All the World." While in public Ali is a horse trader, in secret he is a chainman, or a spy, who works in close collaboration with Colonel Creighton in what he calls the Great Game-the intricate system of espionage the British government used to maintain the security of British India's northernmost borders. At the opening of the novel, Ali entrusts a packet of secret documents to Kim for delivery to Colonel Creighton. It is this action that starts Kim in the direction of becoming a chainman himself. During Kim's vacations from school, he works as an assistant to Mahbub and apprentices with him in the ways of espionage. Like many of the other male characters, Mahbub Ali is a surrogate father figure to Kim.
4. The Amritzar Girl- A courtesan whom Kim and the lama encounter on the train to Umballa, she graciously pays for their ticket fare, ensuring them safe passage.
5. The Arain Farmer- Kim and the lama accidentally trespass on his land as they leave the town of Umballa. His coarse treatment of them, and Kim's subsequent judgment upon him, leads the lama to one of several important sermons on Buddhist practice.
Reverend Arthur Bennett -The Protestant chaplain for the Maverick Irish regiment in India, Mr. Bennett discovers Kim snooping around the barracks and uncovers his identity as the son of a deceased fellow soldier, Kimball O'Hara. Kipling's unsavory portrayal of Mr. Bennett, who is coarse and ignorant of the customs of India, represents his lifelong disapproval of Christian missionary work in India.
Colonel Creighton-Colonel Creighton is a British officer of the army and the supervisor of the "chain men" who work as spies along British India's northern border. Creighton sees that Kim has potential as a spy, and he takes a keen interest in procuring education and training for the boy.
The Curator- The kindly British keeper of the anthropological museum in Lahore, the Curator is also called the "Keeper of the Wonder House." The lama comes to him for guidance in finding the Holy River; he is unable to give guidance but presents the lama with an indispensable pair of reading glasses.
6. The Drummer Boy- Described as a fat boy of fourteen years with freckles, the drummer boy of the regiment has the job of keeping Kim from running away from the army barracks. He is ignorant of the ways of the native people of India and has a hatred for the country and its people, and he refers to them in derisive language.
7. E23- Kim encounters E23, a chainman, on a train being hotly pursued by enemies. Kim uses his spy training to disguise E23 as a Saddhu, thus saving the man's life and acquiring his first taste of life as a spy.
The French Spy-The French spy accompanies the Russian spy on a mission to deliver enemy documents, only to be waylaid by Kim, the lama, and Mookerjee.
8. The Hindu Farmer- A kindly farmer from Umballa, he offers Kim and the lama lodging and food during their stay in his town.
Hindu Servant- When Kim initially arrives at Lurgan Sahib's home for his apprenticeship, Sahib's young servant boy grows jealous and attempts to harm Kim. Later, he becomes Kim's tutor in mastering various aspects of the craft of espionage.
9. Huneefa- A blind prostitute, Huneefa is also an expert in disguise as well as a sort of soothsayer. At Mahbub Ali's behest, she outfits Kim in his first chainman disguise as a Buddhist monk, and she casts several good luck spells over him.
10. Kim-Kim is the title character of the novel. Born in Lahore, India, Kim is orphaned as a baby after his Irish mother dies in childbirth and his father, a soldier in an Irish regiment, slowly dies of an opium addiction. He is raised by the keeper of an opium den in the streets of Lahore. Kim is characterized by a sharp tongue, a tireless wit, a powerful sense of observation, and a keen sense of humor, as well as an untiring appetite for playing pranks and games of wit and trickery. Although he is a white child, he grows up as a "native," with the uncanny ability to blend in to any of the many cultural and religious groups that make up the Indian population — ability that earns him the moniker "The Friend of All the World." This uncanny ability, together with his sharp, conniving nature, makes him a prime candidate for becoming a spy for the British government.
The novel develops along two interconnecting threads of Kim's life from age thirteen to seventeen: his adventures as he traverses India both as the servant of Teshoo Lama, a Tibetan monk, and as a spy-in-training for the British government, and his eventual hand in saving British India from a Russian invasion; and his conflicted identity as both a "Sahib" — a member of the white ruling class in India — and a child born and bred as an Easterner. This sense of displacement and identity loss comes to Kim when he is removed from the company of Indians whom he has known all his life and placed for three years in a Western, Catholic school, where he masters the culture, academic knowledge, and language of the British rulers.
This sense of displacement overcomes Kim several times throughout the novel; however, the novel concludes with Kim's experience of an epiphany: Having previously seen himself as detached and somewhat alienated from the world, he comes to a feeling of belonging among all people.
11. Chota Lal- Chota Lal is one of Kim's playmates in Lahore, prior to his departure as a servant of the lama.
12. Teshoo Lama- Teshoo Lama, the second most important character of the novel, is Kim's master, guardian, father figure, and companion throughout most of the novel, who both cares for Kim and is cared for by Kim. A Buddhist abbot from Tibet, he has come to India in search of the Holy River that sprang from the arrow of the Lord Buddha. Kim accompanies him as his servant throughout the whole of India. While Kim is constantly enchanted by the myriad of people they encounter in their travels, the lama remains fixedly detached from any interest in humanity or the machinations of human life. He spends his time in meditation, and he interacts with his fellow travelers only to preach the ways of Buddhism to them: specifically, that all souls are equal, that all souls are trapped in the cycle of life, and that the only way to escape the cycle of life is through detachment from all things worldly. However, although he strives for utter detachment, the lama occasionally slips and reveals his true affection for his servant, Kim, who likewise adores his master.
The lama carries with him an intricately drawn chart mapping of the Wheel of Life — a symbolic representation of the cycle of life that, according to Buddhist teaching, all souls strive to escape from in order to be reunited with the Great Soul. However, the lama struggles throughout his pilgrimage to remain on the path to Enlightenment and to let go of the attachments of the world, specifically his emotions and bodily desires. The climax of the novel is reached when a Russian spy, desiring the lama's Wheel of Life, rips it from his hands and incites the lama to violence. These actions lead the lama to the absolute realization that he is not free of the emotions of pride and desire. Through this realization, he attains the Enlightenment he has been so strenuously seeking.
In a twist of spiritual irony, his love for Kim leads him not to escape to the Great Soul but to selflessly remain with Kim until his well-being is assured.
13. Lurgan Sahib- Lurgan Sahib is a "half-caste" and a chainman in the Great Game. He is a jeweler, an antique dealer, and a master of hypnotism and disguise. Kim is sent to Lurgan Sahib as an apprentice in order to learn the craft of espionage.
Hurree Chunder Mookerjee- Also known as The Babu, Mookerjee is a Bengali and a chainman in the Great Game. He holds several Western degrees and is an anthropological expert. When he is not explicitly performing spy work, he collects information on various cultural and religious practices across India, for the purpose of anthropological study.
Mookerjee assists in Kim's training as a chainman throughout the novel and officially initiates him into society of the Sons of the Charm. When it is discovered that Russian spies are attempting to organize a breach of the northern border, it is Mookerjee who, with the help of Kim, intercepts their documents and thwarts their mission.
Kimball O'hara- O'Hara is the deceased father of Kim, previously a soldier in an Irish regiment in India and the victim of a debilitating opium addiction. Upon his death, Kim is orphaned and left to the streets of Lahore.
14. The Old Soldier-Kim encounters the old soldier outside of Umballa. A retired soldier who commands the respect of the local Sahibs for his service in the Great Mutiny of 1857, he serves as Kim and the lama's guide to the Grand Trunk Road.
15. The Old Woman of Kulu- Kim and the lama first encounter the old woman on the Grand Trunk Road. She is a wealthy widow from the hill country. A salty-tongued character, she is taken by Kim's ability to match her wit. Kim and the lama are the recipients of her hospitality on numerous occasions. When Kim falls ill, she nurses him back to health, becoming not just a benefactor but a mother figure to the orphaned Kim.
16. The Opium Den Keeper- After the death of Kimball O'Hara, the woman who kept the opium den where he met his demise was left to care for young Kim from the age of three to thirteen.
The Punjabi Farmer- Kim, disguised as a Buddhist priest, is begged by the Punjabi farmer to heal his sick child. Kim uses his medicine kit to cure the child, thereby earning the gratitude of the farmer. In thanksgiving, he serves as Kim's companion for a brief time.
The Russian Spy- One of two spies who breach the northern border in order to deliver enemy documents, the Russian spy picks a fight with the lama after he refuses to sell him a precious drawing. During the ensuing fight, Kim and Mookerjee manage to procure the enemy documents.
Father Victor- The Catholic chaplain of the Maverick Irish regiment in India, he is instrumental in obtaining an education for Kim at St. Xavier's school.
17. The Woman of Shamlegh- The Woman of Shamlegh takes Kim and the lama into her home after they are attacked by the Russian spies. She makes a failed attempt to seduce Kim. Like most of the women portrayed in Kim, Lispeth presents a dual nature: both caretaker and temptress.

Chapter-wise Summary
Chapter 1
The novel Kim by Rudyard Kipling takes place in British India in the 1880s and 1890s. The novel opens with the introduction of the title character: Kim is a thirteen-year-old boy of Irish heritage who has been orphaned in India and raised by an opium den keeper in the city of Lahore, amid the myriad cultures of India. Because of the ability he has developed to blend in seamlessly among many different cultures through language and his broad knowledge of customs, Kim is known to his acquaintances as Friend of All the World.
Kim meets a Tibetan lama — a Buddhist — who has come to India in search of the Holy River that sprang from the arrow of the Buddha and which promises Enlightenment to its believers. The River proves elusive; even the learned museum curator at Lahore knows nothing of its location. Kim learns that the lama is traveling alone, as his chela, or follower and servant, died in the previous city. Seeing that the lama is an old man in need of assistance, Kim, dressed in the manner of a Hindu beggar child, agrees to be the lama's new chela and accompany the lama on his quest. He informs his friend and sometime guardian, Mahbub Ali, a well-known Afghan horse trader, that he will be leaving Lahore with the lama, and he agrees to carry some vague documents from Ali to an Englishman in Umballa as a favor. However, later that night Kim observes two sinister strangers searching Ali's belongings. Realizing that his favor to Ali smacks of danger, he and the lama, who remains ignorant of Kim's secret dealings, depart early for the road.
Chapter 2
On the train to Umballa, Kim and the lama meet a Hindu farmer and several other characters all representing an array of customs, languages, and religions from all over India, illustrating — as Kipling will often make a point of doing — the diversity of peoples that make up India's native population. Upon arriving in Umballa, Kim secretly seeks out the home of the Englishman — whom he discovers to be a colonel in the army — and delivers Ali's documents. He overhears word of an impending war on the border and realizes that Ali's documents were directly related to this development.
Chapters 3 – 4
The next day, Kim and the lama proceed to the outskirts of Umballa in search of the River, where they accidentally trespass in a farmer's garden. He curses them until he realizes that the lama is a holy man. Kim is angry at the farmer's abuses, but the lama teaches him not to be judgmental, saying, "There is no pride among such who follow the Middle Way." In the evening they are entertained by the headmaster and priest of a village. Kim, who loves to play jokes and games, pretends he is a prophet and "forsees" a great war with eight thousand troops heading to the northern border, drawing on what he had heard in Umballa. An old Indian soldier, who had fought on the British side in the Great Mutiny of 1857, calls Kim's claims to question until Kim makes an accurate description of the colonel — which convinces the soldier of his authenticity.
The old soldier, with renewed respect, accompanies Kim and the lama the next morning to the Grand Trunk Road. During their journey, the lama preaches to the soldier the virtues of maintaining detachment from worldly items, emotions, and actions in order to attain Enlightenment; however, when the lama goes out of his way to entertain a small child with a song, the soldier teases him for showing affection. It is the first evidence of the lama's truly human struggle with maintaining distance from his human emotions.
Eventually, the small party comes upon the Grand Trunk Road, a fifteen-hundred-mile-long route constructed by the East India Company that connected east Calcutta, East Bengal, and Agra. A vivid, detailed description of the masses of travelers is given, including descriptions of several different religious sects, including Sansis, Aklai Sihks, Hindus, Muslims, and Jains, as well as the various wedding and funeral processions marching along the road. This section provides yet another instance of Kipling's travelogue-type digressions to paint a vivid picture of India for his British and American readership. Kim is utterly delighted by the masses of people traveling before his eyes. The lama, however, remains deep in meditation and does not acknowledge the spectacle of life surrounding him.
In the late evening, Kim, utilizing his sharp wit and cunning, procures the aid of a rich old widow from Kulu, herself of a sharp and salty tongue, who is traveling in a royal procession from the northern lands to her daughter in the south. She offers food, shelter, and care for the lama in exchange for the holy man's charms and prayers interceding for the birth of many future grandsons for her.
Chapter 5
While resting along the Grand Trunk Road, Kim comes upon an English army regiment, which bears a green flag with a red bull on it. Since he was a young child, Kim had been told by his guardian that his father — a former soldier — had said that a red bull in a green field would be Kim's salvation. With excitement at having found the sign of the bull, he sneaks into the barracks to find out more information, only to be captured by the Protestant chaplain, Mr. Bennett. Together with Father Victor, the Catholic chaplain, he discovers the personal documents that Kim carries with him everywhere, which reveal him to be not a Hindu beggar but an Irish boy — and the son of Kimball O'Hara, who himself had been a member of this same regiment. Seeing that he is white and the son of a soldier, the chaplains do not allow Kim to continue on as a servant to a Buddhist monk. Kim stays reluctantly with the regiment, and the lama takes his leave abruptly, saying only that he must continue on his Search.
Chapters 6 – 8
Kim is put under watch of a drummer boy, who, having been born and raised in England, holds Kim and everything having to do with India in contempt, and subjects Kim to verbal and physical abuses. Kim, nevertheless, manages to easily outsmart the boy and procure a letter-writer to send word to Mahbub Ali of his whereabouts. Later, Father Victor shows Kim a letter from the lama indicating that he will pay for Kim's education at the Catholic school of St. Xavier's — a school for Sahibs, or white men. Kim is inconsolable at the thought of the lama traveling without him and fending for himself.
Mahbub Ali comes to Kim after receiving his letter. Seeing the good in Kim's future schooling, he tries to convince Kim that is it for the best, for, as he says to Kim, "Once a Sahib, always a Sahib," indicating that he should not only learn the ways of his own people but take advantage of the privilege that being a Sahib has to offer.
Colonel Creighton, the English colonel whom Kim first secretly encountered in Umballa, shows up. After conversing with Ali about Kim's peculiar history, he shows an interest in Kim's welfare and schooling. He accompanies Kim to Lucknow — the location of St. Xavier's — and gently plies Kim with questions, revealing indirectly that he has a keen interest in ascertaining Kim's suitability for future employment as a spy.
Upon arrival at St. Xavier's, Kim encounters the lama, who says that he is staying at a Jain temple in Benares and that he is helping Kim financially in order to acquire spiritual merit. His voice, however, betrays feelings of tenderness.
Kim's first year at St. Xavier's is skimmed over in the narration. The scene quickly skips to summer vacation, during which Kim has decided, against Creighton's wishes, he will take to the road. He dons the disguise of a Hindu beggar child and eventually meets up with Mahbub Ali, who takes him in as an assistant. Kim reveals to Ali his knowledge that the documents he had delivered to Creighton in Umballa had directly related to the war at the northern border. They reach an unspoken understanding between them that Ali serves as a spy for the British Army in what he calls the Great Game and that Kim is in training to become such a spy. Historically, the Great Game was a colloquial term for the espionage network across British India working to protect the northern border from invasion from Russia.
Later in the horse camp, Kim overhears two strangers looking for and plotting against Mahbub Ali. Kim proceeds to warn the horse trader, saving his life.
Chapters 9 – 10
Kim is sent, per Creighton's instructions, to the home of the antiques and jewel dealer, Lurgan Sahib, who is another "player" in the Great Game. Lurgan Sahib is a hypnotist and a master of disguise. He, along with his servant, a small Hindu boy, teaches Kim to master many mind games to train his powers of quick observation, in preparation for his future work as a "chain-man" in the spy network. Another key chain-man, the Bengali Hurree Chunder Mookerjee, visits Lurgan Sahib and Kim and approves of Kim's potential and progress in his training. Mookerjee returns Kim to Lucknow and presents him with the gift of a medicine toolkit.
Kim completes his next year at St. Xavier's with great success as a student. He spends his summer holidays working as an assistant to Mahbub Ali and his Christmas holiday continuing his training with Lurgan Sahib.
After Kim returns for his third year of school, Mahbub Ali and Lurgan Sahib convince Creighton that Kim is ready, at the age of sixteen, to be discharged from school and put into chain-man training directly in the field. After he is discharged from school, Kim is taken to Huneefa, a blind prostitute and a sort of sorceress, who puts him in an authentic disguise as a young Buddhist priest and places a charm against devils upon him. Kim is also provided with all of the trade tools of a chainman, and Mookerjee informs him of the secret code for recognizing another chain-man, or "Son of the Charm." Kim has officially been initiated into the network.
Chapters 11 – 12
Kim, now completely alone and having been schooled as a Sahib but then thrust into the world in the guise of a Buddhist priest, begins to question what his identity is and where he belongs, asking, "Who is Kim — Kim — Kim?" a question that will remain with him. Kim travels to Benares to meet his holy lama. On the way, he encounters a Punjabi farmer who, seeing Kim in the guise of a priest, begs help for his sick child. Kim cures the child with medicines from his kit. Upon reaching the temple where the lama is lodging, he is ecstatic to be reunited with the lama and to continue upon the quest for the Holy River. The lama shows Kim a piece of artwork that has been occupying his time: the Wheel of Life, an intricate, complex chart he has drawn in great detail, illustrating the cycle of life that traps the soul. The lama, ever intent upon attaining Enlightenment and thus escaping the Wheel of Life, carries the chart with him constantly.
On the train, Kim encounters E23, a chain-man in the disguise of a Mahratta, who, having intercepted enemy documents, is under hot pursuit. Kim puts his training as a master of disguise to use and, in order to protect E23, transforms him into a Saddhu — a member of a sect of ascetic priests. The lama, who knows nothing of Kim's training as a spy, believes that Kim has acquired the ability to cast spells and charms, and he warns Kim against using his powers for prideful reasons. Kim and the lama enter a discussion about the virtues of action versus inaction. While the lama advises Kim to abstain from "Doing" except to acquire merit towards Enlightenment, Kim responds that "to abstain from action is unbefitting a Sahib." The lama answers, "There is neither black nor white.... We be all souls seeking to escape."
The old woman whom Kim and the lama had previously encountered on the Grand Trunk Road hears of the lama's proximity and summons him to her home to request further blessings from the lama for her grandchildren. Here, Kim finds Mookerjee waiting for him in the guise of a hakim, or healer. Mookerjee reveals to Kim the details of the spy mission that has been occupying the Great Game for the past few years: the northern border is being jeopardized by five kings who rule over the independent regions bordering British India and are believed to be allying with the Russians, thus creating a significant security hazard for the British Empire. Mookerjee has been enlisted to intercept two Russian spies in the northern hill country and relieve them of their documents. He asks Kim to help him. Kim, eager to participate in the Great Game, convinces the lama to travel to the northern countries.
Chapters 13 – 14
Finally having reached the northern lands, Kim finds the cold, wet weather and the dramatically hilly landscape difficult to travel; however, the lama is happy to be back in a region and environment familiar to him. All the while, Mookerjee has been stalking the two enemy spies, who turn out to be a Frenchman and a Russian. He eventually crosses their path and introduces himself to the spies as a welcoming emissary from the Rajah of Rampur, offering them his services and hospitality as a guide through the hill country. His true aim, of course, is to knock the spies off their course and relieve them of their secret documents before they are delivered into enemy hands.
Mookerjee leads the spies as if he is a travel guide and happens upon Kim and the lama, who is expounding on his Wheel of Life. One of the spies demands that the lama sell him his drawing of the Wheel. When the lama refuses, the spy reaches out to grab the paper and rips it, much to the chagrin of the lama, who in anger rises and threatens the spy with his lead pencase — inciting the Russian spy to punch him full in the face. Kim immediately tackles the Russian spy and beats him, while the spies' servants — who are Buddhists and therefore enraged at the attack on a holy man — drive away the French spy and run off with the luggage.
Kim, leaving the spies to the care of Mookerjee, convinces the servants that the luggage, being the possession of two evil men, is cursed. He obtains the package with the secret documents and heads to Shamlegh-under-the-snow for shelter, where they stay with the Woman of Shamlegh.
The lama, meanwhile, is shaken at his inability to resist his passions and at his gross display of attachment to his artwork and to his emotions. The excitement and worry have made him ill. In his illness he spends much time in meditation and, after a few days, informs Kim that he has seen "The Cause of Things": his bodily desire to return to the hills caused him to abandon his search for the River; his act of giving into his desire led him to further give in to his passions and attack the spy — thus moving farther and farther from his quest on the Way to Enlightenment. Having come to this conclusion, the lama demands that he be taken back to the lowlands of India to continue his search for the Holy River.
The woman of Shamlegh, in spite of receiving gentle rebuke from Kim for her attempts to seduce him, provides a litter to carry the lama back through the hills and food for their journey. Kim kisses her on the cheek at his departure and, as a gift to her, reveals that he is not a priest but a Sahib. Kim and the lama, who is now ill, continue on the road, Kim with the intercepted documents hidden in his luggage.
Chapter 15
Kim and the convalescent lama travel for over twelve days and return to the home of the old woman of Kulu, where Kim collapses into a feverish illness. The old woman nurses him out of his illness, for which he is grateful. Having acquired many father figures throughout his journeys, he has now acquired a true mother figure. Mookerjee, hearing that Kim is awake and well, relieves him of the secret documents and proceeds to deliver them to the Colonel.
Coming out of his fever and suddenly relieved of the burden of the secret documents, Kim is overcome by a sense of displacement that has visited him several times throughout his travels. He repeats to himself, "I am Kim. What is Kim?" At this point, he experiences an epiphany of his existence. Having previously seen himself as detached and somewhat alienated from the world, he comes to a feeling of utter belonging among all people.
Meanwhile, during Kim's illness, the lama, having foregone food for two days and nights in the pursuit of meditation, has attained the Enlightenment he has been seeking. He relates to Kim how his soul released itself from his body, how he flew up to the Great Soul to meditate upon The Cause of Things. However, a concern came to him suddenly regarding Kim's well-being, and so, for Kim's sake, his soul returned to his body and landed, headlong, in the Holy River of his seeking. He declares his Search is over and that he has attained Deliverance from sin for both himself and his beloved chela.

Review of the Book
Let's say for the sake of argument that there are a number of ways of looking at this novel. Perhaps the most popular way is to look at it as Kipling's reflection of India, and in particular British India. Kipling was an imperialist and one with very firm beliefs. And although his attitudes and prejudices show themselves very clearly in his writings, Kim's story is still definitely not a work of British imperialist propaganda; on the contrary, it's a deliberately entertaining tale.
The boy, Kim, is the orphaned product of the marriage between an Irish colour-sergeant and a British military family's nursemaid. Kim's mother died from cholera and his father, who took up drinking and vagrancy, died too leaving the small boy in the care of a half-caste woman who spent her time intoxicated by opium. Consequently, speaking only a vernacular form of Punjabi, the child grows up as an orphaned urchin on the streets of Lahore. It's difficult not to think of certain elements of Kipling's own Bombay upbringing under the watchful gaze of his ayah, or nursemaid, and of his learning Hidustani as a boy when we read about how Kim came into the world. And Kim's world, as he is acutely aware, is an extremely strange one brimmed full of wonders. His playground is Lahore Museum and its sights and mysteries fill the tiny boy's mind with a combination of reverence and magic. Both of these things Kim will later find good uses for. At that time he is known throughout the city as 'the Friend to the entire World.'
The boy prides himself on his knowledge of the entire city's dark places, every nook, cranny, and hidden passage. It seems as though he loves them and they love him. And to earn a living each day Kim waits until after nightfall when he carries messages across the city either for certain shady people who for various nefarious reasons either can't or won't transport the messages themselves, or for fashionable young men to secluded and modest ladies. The intrigue excites him. He loves it, so he says, simply for its own sake. It doesn't take long for Kim's behaviours to come to the attention of Colonel Creighton, British India's spymaster general. After an unsuccessful attempt to have Kim educated at a military academy, the colonel sees enough promise in young Kim to ensure that he is taught the principles of the Great Game, which refers to the political rivalry between Britain and Russia for territory, influence and dominance in the Near East, especially in India and Afghanistan. In short, Kim becomes a British spy.
And yet, all throughout the story Kim searches for a curious combination of enlightenment at the hands of his beloved Tibetan lama, Teshoo, and worldly wisdom at the hands of several master spies including E23, Mahbub Ali, also known as Red Beard, and the colonel. And although Kim is already a master of disguise and secrecy long before he meets the colonel, it isn't until afterwards that he learns the harsh truth about what living as a colonial spy means. Kim learns all this from one of his Indian colleagues, codenamed E23, who is disguised as a Maharatta. E23 has escaped death many times. But his most recent brush with it has shaken him up and scarred him in the literal sense. E23, the more experienced spy, exhibits his badly cut neck to Kim and asks for some much needed healing. Kim obliges while chanting various incantations and mixing ad-hoc medicines from anything he can find. And while he doctors the sick man he learns about treachery, deceit and the often-fatal risks involved in playing the Great Game. Kim asks his wounded teacher with some surprise if the government cannot intervene to protect an endangered spy and he gets told simply that in this profession, "if we die, we die and our names are blotted from the book. That is all." Kim seems to have little difficulty in accepting this somewhat fatalistic outlook. In fact he seems far more concerned about what his companions think of the new disguise that he has put the recently healed E23 into, the guise of a Hindu Saddhu. But, unfortunately, the healing, the incantations and the transformation in E23's appearance are all too much for one of Kim's simple-minded companions and the man decamps fearing that Kim might be tempted to try out some of that magic on him!
Having learned of the many dangers of spying, and witnessed both the cruelty and the treachery of the Great Game Kim is finally sent by Colonel Creighton on an important mission. The Russians have sent a group of their own spies into the Khyber Pass posing as geologists. Kim is sent to deliver a message to a British spy, Huree, who is keeping an eye on the enemy. But Kim arrives too late and Huree has already been killed. Having wormed his way into the Russian camp Kim remains there until he is detected almost by accident. Then a furious battle ensues from which Kim and his allies emerge victorious. Teshoo Lama dies though as a result of injuries sustained in the great battle and was it not so near the end of the story that we learn of the lama's death it might have enabled us to see how profound a change the loss of his spiritual guide makes on young Kim. In fact what we do is to meditate with Kim who seems unconcerned with the body of his beloved lama but is instead possessed by its soul. But we have barely two pages with Kim in this state and not nearly enough I believe to understand what the lama's death and his place in the dangerous world of the Great Game really means to him both now that he is alone, and in so many ways, now that he has become a man.

Themes of the Novel
Equality and Unity
The ideal of the equality and unity of men echoes across several motifs in Kim, most notably through the Buddhist teachings of Teshoo Lama. He tells Kim, "To those who follow the Way there is neither black nor white, Hind nor Bhotiyal. We be all souls seeking to escape." This ideal of the equality and unity of men transcends the stringent caste, or class, distinctions of the predominantly Hindu society that Kim has known.
The lama carries with him a diagram called the Wheel of Life, which is a symbolic representation of the Buddhist doctrine that all lives are equally bound in the cycle of life and that all souls seek release from this cycle by attaining Enlightenment. The numerous references to the Wheel of Life throughout the novel serve to reinforce the message of equality and unity. The lama's teachings and his quest for Enlightenment are never the subject of Kipling's criticism, as are other religious beliefs presented in Kim; rather, the resolution of the novel includes the lama's triumphant attainment of Enlightenment, which serves to authenticate, rather than disprove, the doctrine of equality and unity echoed throughout.
Kipling also uses the theme of unity to portray an ideal India that is not divided by imperialism but rather is unified under it. This is especially evident in the relationships between the characters who participate in the Great Game: Mahbub Ali, an Afghan; Lurgan Sahib, a person of "mixed" race; Hurree Chunder Mookerjee, a Bengali; and Colonel Creighton, an Englishman, an officer, and therefore a member of the ruling class. Despite their disparate backgrounds, all these characters are united in a tight brotherhood of espionage that functions specifically to protect the interests of the British Empire in India. It is especially significant that Kipling shows both British and Indian characters alike operating on an equal basis for the good of the empire. This serves to promote an idealized, unrealistic portrayal of a specifically united, inclusive British India.
Imperialism
John A. McClure writes in his essay "Kipling's Richest Dream," "In Kim ... brotherhood and despotism keep uneasy company." In other words, the finely crafted portrayal of unity and equality Kipling develops between "native" and "Sahib" conflicts with the unavoidable fact that the British are the governing class, and the Indians are the governed. Kipling, however, presents the imperialist presence in India as unquestionably positive. This is done most effectively through the main plot of the novel — the endeavors of Indian and British spies to protect the northern border of British India from the encroachment of Russia, thus protecting the imperial interests of the British Empire. It is especially significant that Indian spies are shown protecting British interests. In this way, Kipling constructs an India in which the native population supports the British Empire and thus presents Britain's imperialist presence as a positive good.
Orientalism
In recent years, orientalism has come to be defined as the knowledge and beliefs about the peoples of "the Orient" — that is, of the Middle East, South Asia, and East Asia — as constructed and imposed by their Western European colonizers. Many of the observations of Indian life presented in Kim as fact are derogatory stereotypes, derived from such orientalists' beliefs.
For example, Edward Said writes in his introduction to Kim:
Sihks are characterized as having a special 'love of money'; Hurree Babu equates being a Bengali with being fearful; when he hides the packet taken from the foreign agents, the Babu 'stowed the entire trove about his body, as only Orientals can.'
These derogatory ethnic stereotypes are sharply contrasted with Kipling's portrayals of the British and British culture as more advanced. For example, when Lurgan Sahib attempts to hypnotize Kim, Kim recites the multiplication tables he learned at English school to resist — sharply symbolizing Kipling's belief in the advancement of British law over the superstitious ways of the Asians. Such contrasts throughout Kim serve to support and justify the rule of the "more capable" British over the Indian people.
Identity
The character of Kim is placed in a predicament of identity: Kim, an Irish orphan, grows up in the streets of the Indian city of Lahore and adapts to the culture and languages of India — so well, in fact, that he can pass himself off as a member of almost any religious or cultural group of India. He is at once a Sahib and, by virtue of his upbringing, a part of the colonized society.
Kim, who is known as "Friend of All the World" and includes "this great and beautiful land" as all his people, begins to undergo a crisis of identity when he is first made to go to school to become a Sahib.
This question of identity and belonging plagues Kim throughout the novel, leaving him with a feeling of loneliness. Although Kim's conflict of identity is brought about by being suddenly thrust into the British culture, it is significant that Kipling does not make Kim's identity crisis one in which he must choose between living as a Sahib — the member of the governing class — and as a "native — a member of the governed. Through Kim's eventual ability to reconcile both, Kipling symbolizes his larger ideal of a unified British India.
Religion
One of Kim's major plotlines is the quest for Enlightenment undertaken by Teshoo Lama. While the lama faces both external and internal obstacles to fulfilling his quest, the novel culminates with his triumphant attainment of his goal. The novel is threaded throughout with the lama's Buddhist spirituality and teachings while many of the characters, including Kim, question and are mystified by his philosophies, the lama's success at attaining Enlightenment at the end of the novel serves to validate the authenticity and truth of his messages.
In marked contrast to the validation of Buddhism in Kim is a censure of Christianity, as represented by Father Victor and the Reverend Bennett. Unlike the lama, who inspired Kim's complete adoration, the Christian chaplains are portrayed as ignorant and undignified, therefore inspiring Kim's disgust. Although the chaplains try to convert Kim to Christianity, he remains devoted to his Buddhist master. This symbolic "defeat" of Christianity can be read as evidence of Kipling's lifelong loathing of Christianity and missionary work in India.
Women and Treachery
Kim is a markedly male story, featuring an all-male cast of characters and focusing on traditionally male relationships: that of Master and Student and the initiation of Kim into a society — the Sons of the Charm. The women characters factor mostly as plot devices. The old woman of Kulu provides a place for Kim and the lama to rest, as does the Woman of Shamlegh.
However, even though women play a very minor role in the novel, the representation of women denotes a regard for women as treacherous obstacles to the goals of men, be they spiritual pursuits or political games. For example, the lama complains that the old woman of Kulu has derailed him from his Search: "Take note, my chela, that even those who would follow the Way are thrust aside by idle women!" Kim is likewise warned of the machinations of women by his other father figure, Mahbub Ali, during his training as a spy: "Mahbub was exact to point out how Huneefa [a prostitute] and her likes had destroyed kings."
The absence of women from most of the novel, therefore, not only creates a sense that spiritual quests and adventures in travel are the realm of men but that it is an absolute necessity for the success of the male characters in being successful in their goals.