Transcription of Interview 8
Date: August 21, 2009 (Friday) Time: 5:30 PM to 6:5 AM
Researcher: Sir, how should we see the relation among formal, non-formal and informal learning?
Respondent: We can perceive the issue you have raised from different perspectives. If we perceive formal learning, non-formal and informal learning through complimentary design you have to take … for example … I study in Grade 1 but I can’t go to school today because I have to graze cow, then I need to have something that compensates my today’s class such as self module package, radio, peers’ facilitation design, cassette … whatever may be … you will find two three ways to complement each other…the first is, non-formal learning mode should be taken along with formal learning.
Researcher: Should it be done sir?
Respondent: Yes, we can do and we should do. I can give you an example, in Canada the students of 11/12 must go through open mode, have to take certain course…there is relation between them; on the basis of the evaluation of both formal and non-formal mode he/she is awarded. The second way asserts that informal education can be found everywhere. A person who grazes cow can be scientist, sociologist, economist, etc. on grazing cows. The student thinks on how he could link his knowledge with the knowledge imparted by the teacher. The teacher has to ask to complete the project on the science of cow grazing, sociology of cow grazing and economics of cow crazing. In this way, teacher can link informal learning with the formal learning. On the basis of that he/she should be certified. You can take many designs practiced in the world such as in China (Learner-Farmer), America (Farm Learning) and Britain (Foreign Visit).
Learning becomes lifelong process when we let students think, not by providing them food. We shouldn’t give material; rather we should give questions to them. They need to have access with materials to find the answers of the questions. For example, a reaper can practice mathematics while cutting grass as he/she should conjecture on the basis of the number of the strands of grasses in a bundle he/she makes. If the strands are thicker, a less amount of strands can make a bundle. There is also a type of lifelong learning.
Researcher: Despite these philosophical aspects of the phenomenon, what problem would you see on the ‘How’ aspect? How to carry out all these endeavors?
Respondent: Our existing one-sided mind doesn’t work. Our teachers have to understand that lesson learnt in school and the lesson learnt at home are the same; the only difference between informal and formal learning is only the value given to them, the things are the same. The teachers have to understand that and I think the problem will be solved immediately.
Researcher: You mean that … when you say teachers should understand the things… you wanted to say how can we adapt informal learning into the formal structure of education?
Respondent: The concept of equivalency came from the concept of structure. If we create a design to test ability, structure becomes not so important. For me structure is secondary thing. Personally, I am against the structural system. The primary thing is ability of a person. He/she can be able from any means. The teachers shouldn’t care how and where the students learnt, rather they should care what they learnt. If a student can answer the questions in an exam apt to test the ability desired he/she should be declared pass.
Researcher: If so, then what type of mechanism should be developed to test their ability? Does the present mechanism can function for this?
Respondent: We can take the example of the system of assessing the ability of students in TU and KU. In the M. Phil. and PhD programs of these universities the questions are selected, administered, examined, and awards are given by themselves. The boards of examination are jut to put stamp. It is the ability of TU and KU program runners to do so. So, what I wanted to say is that our teachers, our parents, our student, etc. have to groom to that level of thinking.
Researcher: Sir, do you think the learners who came informally and non-formally be equivalent with the ones who came formally?
Respondent: You raised a nice issue. One of the negative aspects of formal education is averaging the people. Men can never be average. If formal learning and informal learning are not average, then the products of these two modes of learning should get equivalent certificated, not equal certificate.
Researcher: If so then can we say that, they should be given equivalent certificates and from the employment point of view …
Respondent: Employment is related to the market. Market is changeable according to time. We can’t accommodate changes in educational structure. It makes curriculum, it can’t be new. Formal school has such rigidity. I am at the side of teaching learner to haunt the market not to fit in the market. What I believe is that market runs faster than school. To update them short-term training and updated material can be used. The idea of updating them by colleges and schools is a traditional concept.
Researcher: Sir, do you mean that the learners from any mode of learning should determine the market….?
Respondent: Learners should make his/her own market. They should be able to create his/her demand himself/herself in the market. The important thing is making people skillful according to the changing demand of time. Trying to make people fit in the existing context is not good. Individuals should be made capable.
Researcher: What the state has to do to make individuals capable?
Respondent: I don’t see other thing rather than deploying capable teachers. Neither teachers have been able to create the environment conducive for that nor interact properly with the existing environment. Something different has attracted them. If they follow a political incumbent they will be promoted and rather than teaching if they dictate notes to the students they will also pass. Without reading and writing they have been able to be professor. What the state could have done for eliminating this tendency is that a good culture should have developed. Decentralization of authority could be one of the solutions.
Researcher: Sir, can we develop a national qualifications framework by incorporating all types of informal learning even indigenous knowledge and skills and leveling them on the basis of complexity to learn as it has been done by the countries of European Union in the form of EQF?
Respondent: Everything has its culture. In Europe students are valued in terms of the competence they have acquired. But in our country if we do so the students, parents, politicians and even teachers who are their relatives become combative against the teachers who have credited the students on the basis of competence. The teachers in those countries seek for quality otherwise they don’t sign, but in here the teachers don’t do so. The teachers in those countries are equally accountable. A certificate given by the teacher of France is given equal value in Denmark and Finland. Because of cultural difference I can’t say that we can do as it is being done in Europe but what I hope is that if the people of our kind can make this voice heard it can be done. If teachers are made accountable for quality control we can certainly establish a standard as it has been done by the Europeans.
Researcher: Sir, if we make the provision of certifying indigenous knowledge and skills, will it increase or decrease the value that they have got so far?
Respondent: I think it will increase the value. For example, in America, an angler acquires PhD in fishing, what I claim is that the anglers in Nepal are already PhD; only what they need is new technology and ability to write. There is no harm in accrediting his/her skill. The blacksmith in Nepal and the ironsmith of America are of the same category. The blacksmith of Nepal does know in what temperature he should hammer on the anvil, what he needs is what degree of temperature is the hotness that makes him feel that that was the right temperature for pouring water on the sickle being prepared. If we can fit in his knowledge with the technology he can be better product than the university graduate. If we have a university of this type he can be the expert in the Department of Ironware. We have been shouting for that but the problem is social stigma that has attached with us. Knowledge is not a threat but the stigma.
Researcher: As you said, then, a priest and a cobbler can fall at the same level in terms of their expertise in their respective skills….
Respondent: Exactly the same, yes the same. The priests and the cobbler need to update their knowledge and skills. The priest should be motivated to unravel the mysteries behind his ritual performance. We have to create an environment that provides an impetus for him to explore the knowledge behind such ritual endeavors. The priest knows that to worship Mars he has to use red vermilion powder but he doesn’t know that the planet Mars is red. He doesn’t know what NASA has discovered. Though the knowledge he is holding emerged before NASA had established, he doesn’t know what has happened so far. What I have been saying is that our priest have been using black powder for worshipping Saturn, one day NASA will discover that Saturn is black. Our norms and values are superior to Western norms and values but the ones who are supposed to plunge into the field and give new flavor are following as though they are blind. Our education system has not been able to make the priests believe that their knowledge is superior to the knowledge discovered by NASA. We are wealthier that Europe, we have been lagging behind because we are trying to carry on the Western knowledge…despite being attached with only English and Nepali language can’t we open a Language University to foster all the indigenous language of the nation?
Researcher: Sir, how do you think we should assess the knowledge and skill of informal and non-formal learners?
Respondent: As I told you earlier, the market will assess them. The case of certification and taking it equivalent with formal learning certificate it is a psychological aspect. For self-satisfaction the certificate can be used, otherwise it’s the market to decide whether they are viable or not, useful or not for the market. Market makes them update knowledge.
Researcher: Sir, finally, what do you think we should do to enhance lifelong learning in our context?
Respondent: I think it’s easy. For example, if we say to the people that if you do some kind of research and write on that then I will publish your writing then they will be learning for that. If we say a person that you have seen so many insects in day-to-day life, take a camera, snap as many different types of insects as you could see throughout your life, study them and make a report, on the basis of which you will be granted with PhD in entomology, what problem will be there? I don’t think that will be wrong. If we equip person with technology and enable them to write they will be learning throughout their life.
Researcher: Thank you very much sir!
