If you have to see his attraction don't look at him
Because you may not find what you are looking for
He may not have worn beautiful apparel inside
He may not have gorgeous face-skin inside
He may not have shining boot inside
If you have to see his courage don't look at him
The mighty sword might have rusted inside
The giant canon may have broken inside
The bows and may have lost inside
His wide chest and muscle decayed inside
If you have to see his intelligent don't look at him
The brain may be full of crime and murder
The nerves may be full of criminal emotions
His mind may be ready for blood saturation
His wisdom might have been in defunct maturation
To understand his words don't look at it
But the meaning between them
The meaning of his reality
The meaning of his world
The meaning of his perspective
Hostility, anger, revenge
Don't try to change
But a journey to manage!!!
Wednesday, August 5, 2009
Saturday, August 1, 2009
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Monday, July 27, 2009
Two Different Worlds
Two worlds one is yours and the other mine
I am not poor but you see you are only fine
Different are the eyes different are the mind
Different are the legs and different hand
You collect money I collect wisdom
You collect friend but I collect friendship
You look for fruits but I grow fruit-tree
You want to be rich but I am free
There is god for you but I see him everywhere
My gods are in slums but yours in temples
You become happy at the hunger of my gods
You chuckkle around the empty pots of my lords
In the empty stomach you make dine
You start to convert 5 into nine
Your would be the earth but
The world would be mine!
I am not poor but you see you are only fine
Different are the eyes different are the mind
Different are the legs and different hand
You collect money I collect wisdom
You collect friend but I collect friendship
You look for fruits but I grow fruit-tree
You want to be rich but I am free
There is god for you but I see him everywhere
My gods are in slums but yours in temples
You become happy at the hunger of my gods
You chuckkle around the empty pots of my lords
In the empty stomach you make dine
You start to convert 5 into nine
Your would be the earth but
The world would be mine!
Sunday, July 26, 2009
Transcription of Interview 7
Transcription of Interview 7
Date: July 19, 2009 (Saturday) Time: 11 AM to 11:30 AM
Researcher: Sir, let me put my first curiosity. It seems that we have focused more on formal education? Are non-formal and informal learning important as equally as formal learning? Do you think the three forms of learning are equal? If not, what do you think we should do to make them equally important?
Respondent: Thank you for this opportunity. Well, I think to address this issue we have to see the history of education. Informal learning is the beginning of education. Gradually, people realize that informal education couldn’t deliver knowledge completely. To compensate this formal education came into practice. The foundation of our knowledge or education is informal education. If you see the intellectual development of an individual roughly 80% of learning comes informally. So informal learning leads our life and it is enhanced by formal and non-formal education. The basics of our knowledge are informal. Formal education adds value to these basics. If formal education system misses out something and is unable to provide appropriate delivery then only we go to non-formal education. That’s why, I think, the concept of giving importance to either one or the other modes of learning is not so important. The three modes of learning take place in the life of all individuals.
The knowledge and skill that is delivered through societal and family system is informal learning. The society gave the responsibility of providing knowledge on the basis of contextual relation to formal education. Before 4/5 hundred years ago the responsibilities of delivering formal knowledge was taken by religion and some social institutions. Therefore, if you take the things in this sense the formal education system emerged as an alternative of informal education system. In the due course of time the system of schooling developed. In this way schools came as an agent of education to deliver knowledge which the family was not able to deliver.
Schooling could sole some of the problems but as all the people couldn’t have access to school and schools didn’t fit for the ones who were in different social context. For imparting knowledge to them the non-formal education system developed as another facet of formal education. Thus non-formal and formal educations are in complementary relationship. Non-formal is not the thing to challenge formal education.
Sometimes the issue of formal, non-formal and informal learning has to bees seen through the state-relation perspective. Informal education grows as per the interest of a family or a society. Schooling is organized by a state. So school is a state agency, it’s a state business because it quenches the thirst of the state. The state uses it to fulfill its objectives. Hence informal is societal business and formal is state business. Non-formal overlaps to them. Sometimes it is societal business and sometimes state-business. Broadly, non-formal and formal are in state-territory whereas informal education is in non-state territory.
So far as the issue of recognition of one mode of learning to another mode of learning, formal education deserves credit and it is compatible and comparable. Its recognition is transferable. It claims value in a concrete manner. But the credit award system of non-formal education is not so concretized and recognized. It doesn’t have any recognized framework. The requirement of non-formal education in different parts of the world may be different. Thus, one the basis of global family need, for survival need, there is informal education and formal education is attached to it. And non-formal education takes place when formal education is inadequate to deliver the desired knowledge to the desired people. So formal education is defined and shaped by curricular framework but non-formal education goes beyond such curricular framework. On the basis of recognition formal education is globally recognized because it is comparable, compatible and standardized.
Researcher: Sir, can we recognize non-formal and informal learning as formal learning? If yes, how should it be done?
Respondent: There is nothing as such. It can be done but a number of things have to be done for this. The credit system has to be concretized. The value of education that has been attached to formal education has also to be given to non-formal education. We have to go in a comparable credit system which is called accreditation. For accreditation we have to consider some of the important things for example content load, mode of delivery, authenticity of assessment, etc. Formal system defines and concretizes the knowledge gained by an individual and certifies it.
In the context of Nepal some efforts have been made to recognize non-formal learning. Non-formal participants have got chance to enter into formal education system. Attempts have been made to make non-formal and formal education comparable. We have tried to put non-formal education in an accreditation system. For making non-formal education creditable like formal education it must adopt some of the vital features of formal education such as examination, curriculum, etc. If they are not made so they can’t be made comparable. Without making them comparable one can’t replace another.
Researcher: Sir, can we recognize the learning achievements of informal learners and certify them as formal learners? For example, if a person, who has never gone to school, claims that s/he has knowledge and skills equivalent to the one who has passed Bachelor Degree? What problems do you see certify his/her existing knowledge and to allow him/her to enroll in Master Degree?
Respondent: You have to see the relation between knowledge and certificate through a different perspective. Knowledge is a fundamental thing. To make it instrumental we need to certify it. Knowledge is what one knows, what s/he can do or perform. So knowledge is axiomatic, grows informally. It is not all the time necessary that it should be certified. Certification is needed only when we have to make value transfer of need mobility from one form to another. People used to prove their ability and talent by doing some extraordinary thing in the past. Only to make it instrumental such provision of certification was brought. That’s why what I believe is that certificate doesn’t represent the knowledge of an individual in its totality.
If we use certificate to value knowledge, then the certificate can undermine knowledge itself. What is considered important is certificate rather than knowledge. Knowledge has its ingenuity. We can’t compare certificate with ingenuity. What I have seen is that the most fundamental part is knowledge and experience of an individual. Just to make it representative it has been converted into certificate. Moreover, in order to recognize traditional value and norms we don’t need to certify it. Certificate itself is a testimony; nonetheless, it can sometime give misrepresentation. It has many flaws. It can’t represent the total knowledge of an individual. For example, in SLC examination one-third of the total knowledge is able to provide the certificate. First of all 100% itself is not the total knowledge of an individual. Even if we consider it a total knowledge, just one-third is enough for the certificate. We shouldn’t see totality of knowledge in certificate. They don’t have one to one relation. If we do so it may mislead.
In my opinion, in the case of traditional knowledge, wisdom and skill it has to go on getting values as it has been getting since past. As far as modern education system is concerned the certification has got credit because it has given global mobility and transferability of one’s knowledge and skill. Now-a-days people have started talking about decertification. Rather than giving importance to certificate we have to consider knowledge, skill and competence of an individual.
Researcher: If s/he without certificate has knowledge, skill and competence equivalent to the one who has done Bachelor Degree…
Respondent: Yes, that is what it should be. Certificate is an artificial arrangement only. It is not an absolute truth. The absolute truth is knowledge. We have been using certificate because we don’t have other alternative to see the absolute truth. Had there been a better option certificate wouldn’t have been used. The reason behind decertification is that it hasn’t made a reliable representation as expected. But it doesn’t mean that we have to destabilize the existing system.
Researcher: Sir, let me put you related but a bit different issue. As you said earlier people acquire knowledge and skill, no matter whether they acquire through forma, non-formal or informal means. Then, can we identify such knowledge and skill and keep them in a single National Qualifications Framework and level them as per the complexity in acquiring them in order to make all three forms of learning equivalent?
Respondent: It’s an interesting facet but it may have some unwanted consequences. For example, the knowledge system as a whole may inclined towards commercialization. Indigenous knowledge may be commercialized. It is potential rather than commercial. It is a non-commercial asset. I don’t think it should be treated as a commodity. If we use it as a commodity it may lose its ground. I think if we start treating indigenous knowledge it won’t posses its wisdom and preciousness. Indigenous knowledge has been preserved in the form of religion, culture and the faith of an individual. If we start certifying them it may lose it value. If we give monetary value to indigenous knowledge it may develop a negative tradition. Therefore, every time certificate may not provide value to informal learning.
Our indigenous knowledge deserves value without certificate. If we go on certifying the vast treasure of knowledge our ancestors preserved and transferred to us it will be a great injustice. Thus, certification can go against justice. To go for monetary system certification is needed but if certification gets space in spiritual values it may develop some kind of negative tradition.
Researcher: Sir, in order to preserve and promote such knowledge and skill what should be done?
Respondent: The most important thing is trust. We have to build up trust. The society moves on trust. For example, one goes to visit doctor because of trust. The patient doesn’t see the certificate of the doctor. We have to be accountable to the trust. Sometimes certificate can work as an instrument of trust but it can’t be the replacement of trust. Trust is virtue. So, we have to promote indigenous knowledge and skill in terms of trust.
We are bound by a kind of code-of-conduct. It has been working without certificate on the basis of faith system. If we keep everything on certificate and move accordingly we may lose many precious things of our culture and tradition. Furthermore, the tendency will degrade the given value of the indigenous knowledge.
If we respect indigenous knowledge in its own status it gets value but when we try to certify them some artificial knowledge may outwit such precious wisdom. I mean to say the artificial knowledge of an individual that s/he uses to get certificate may replace his/her real knowledge.
Researcher: Finally, what should we do to enhance lifelong learning and continuing education in the context of Nepal?
Respondent: The issue you have raised in very crucial. The main thing is how to make knowledge functional. If there is a positive relation between knowledge and its function it will enhance lifelong learning and continuing education but if it is not knowledge can deteriorate. Retention and promotion of knowledge is its application. In a professional community or organization we have to drive knowledge to its fullest we have to create a system of knowledge sharing and cross breading in order to make knowledge and skill functional. Our knowledge and skill can be multiplied by sharing. The system of sharing is needed in order to make our knowledge and skill contemporaneous. Knowledge earned 10 years ago may not be the same knowledge earned today and the knowledge likely to be earned after 10 years. There is no absolute truth in the world. Truth differs according to time and space. If a doctor has a certificate that s/he achieved 5 years ago it represents his/her knowledge of that time. The knowledge may not be functional if it is not made up-to-date. It may not give appropriate service and may culminate into unfavorable consequences. Therefore, knowledge has to be made contemporaneous. Thank you very much.
Researcher: Thank you very much sir for your time and valuable inputs for my research.
Date: July 19, 2009 (Saturday) Time: 11 AM to 11:30 AM
Researcher: Sir, let me put my first curiosity. It seems that we have focused more on formal education? Are non-formal and informal learning important as equally as formal learning? Do you think the three forms of learning are equal? If not, what do you think we should do to make them equally important?
Respondent: Thank you for this opportunity. Well, I think to address this issue we have to see the history of education. Informal learning is the beginning of education. Gradually, people realize that informal education couldn’t deliver knowledge completely. To compensate this formal education came into practice. The foundation of our knowledge or education is informal education. If you see the intellectual development of an individual roughly 80% of learning comes informally. So informal learning leads our life and it is enhanced by formal and non-formal education. The basics of our knowledge are informal. Formal education adds value to these basics. If formal education system misses out something and is unable to provide appropriate delivery then only we go to non-formal education. That’s why, I think, the concept of giving importance to either one or the other modes of learning is not so important. The three modes of learning take place in the life of all individuals.
The knowledge and skill that is delivered through societal and family system is informal learning. The society gave the responsibility of providing knowledge on the basis of contextual relation to formal education. Before 4/5 hundred years ago the responsibilities of delivering formal knowledge was taken by religion and some social institutions. Therefore, if you take the things in this sense the formal education system emerged as an alternative of informal education system. In the due course of time the system of schooling developed. In this way schools came as an agent of education to deliver knowledge which the family was not able to deliver.
Schooling could sole some of the problems but as all the people couldn’t have access to school and schools didn’t fit for the ones who were in different social context. For imparting knowledge to them the non-formal education system developed as another facet of formal education. Thus non-formal and formal educations are in complementary relationship. Non-formal is not the thing to challenge formal education.
Sometimes the issue of formal, non-formal and informal learning has to bees seen through the state-relation perspective. Informal education grows as per the interest of a family or a society. Schooling is organized by a state. So school is a state agency, it’s a state business because it quenches the thirst of the state. The state uses it to fulfill its objectives. Hence informal is societal business and formal is state business. Non-formal overlaps to them. Sometimes it is societal business and sometimes state-business. Broadly, non-formal and formal are in state-territory whereas informal education is in non-state territory.
So far as the issue of recognition of one mode of learning to another mode of learning, formal education deserves credit and it is compatible and comparable. Its recognition is transferable. It claims value in a concrete manner. But the credit award system of non-formal education is not so concretized and recognized. It doesn’t have any recognized framework. The requirement of non-formal education in different parts of the world may be different. Thus, one the basis of global family need, for survival need, there is informal education and formal education is attached to it. And non-formal education takes place when formal education is inadequate to deliver the desired knowledge to the desired people. So formal education is defined and shaped by curricular framework but non-formal education goes beyond such curricular framework. On the basis of recognition formal education is globally recognized because it is comparable, compatible and standardized.
Researcher: Sir, can we recognize non-formal and informal learning as formal learning? If yes, how should it be done?
Respondent: There is nothing as such. It can be done but a number of things have to be done for this. The credit system has to be concretized. The value of education that has been attached to formal education has also to be given to non-formal education. We have to go in a comparable credit system which is called accreditation. For accreditation we have to consider some of the important things for example content load, mode of delivery, authenticity of assessment, etc. Formal system defines and concretizes the knowledge gained by an individual and certifies it.
In the context of Nepal some efforts have been made to recognize non-formal learning. Non-formal participants have got chance to enter into formal education system. Attempts have been made to make non-formal and formal education comparable. We have tried to put non-formal education in an accreditation system. For making non-formal education creditable like formal education it must adopt some of the vital features of formal education such as examination, curriculum, etc. If they are not made so they can’t be made comparable. Without making them comparable one can’t replace another.
Researcher: Sir, can we recognize the learning achievements of informal learners and certify them as formal learners? For example, if a person, who has never gone to school, claims that s/he has knowledge and skills equivalent to the one who has passed Bachelor Degree? What problems do you see certify his/her existing knowledge and to allow him/her to enroll in Master Degree?
Respondent: You have to see the relation between knowledge and certificate through a different perspective. Knowledge is a fundamental thing. To make it instrumental we need to certify it. Knowledge is what one knows, what s/he can do or perform. So knowledge is axiomatic, grows informally. It is not all the time necessary that it should be certified. Certification is needed only when we have to make value transfer of need mobility from one form to another. People used to prove their ability and talent by doing some extraordinary thing in the past. Only to make it instrumental such provision of certification was brought. That’s why what I believe is that certificate doesn’t represent the knowledge of an individual in its totality.
If we use certificate to value knowledge, then the certificate can undermine knowledge itself. What is considered important is certificate rather than knowledge. Knowledge has its ingenuity. We can’t compare certificate with ingenuity. What I have seen is that the most fundamental part is knowledge and experience of an individual. Just to make it representative it has been converted into certificate. Moreover, in order to recognize traditional value and norms we don’t need to certify it. Certificate itself is a testimony; nonetheless, it can sometime give misrepresentation. It has many flaws. It can’t represent the total knowledge of an individual. For example, in SLC examination one-third of the total knowledge is able to provide the certificate. First of all 100% itself is not the total knowledge of an individual. Even if we consider it a total knowledge, just one-third is enough for the certificate. We shouldn’t see totality of knowledge in certificate. They don’t have one to one relation. If we do so it may mislead.
In my opinion, in the case of traditional knowledge, wisdom and skill it has to go on getting values as it has been getting since past. As far as modern education system is concerned the certification has got credit because it has given global mobility and transferability of one’s knowledge and skill. Now-a-days people have started talking about decertification. Rather than giving importance to certificate we have to consider knowledge, skill and competence of an individual.
Researcher: If s/he without certificate has knowledge, skill and competence equivalent to the one who has done Bachelor Degree…
Respondent: Yes, that is what it should be. Certificate is an artificial arrangement only. It is not an absolute truth. The absolute truth is knowledge. We have been using certificate because we don’t have other alternative to see the absolute truth. Had there been a better option certificate wouldn’t have been used. The reason behind decertification is that it hasn’t made a reliable representation as expected. But it doesn’t mean that we have to destabilize the existing system.
Researcher: Sir, let me put you related but a bit different issue. As you said earlier people acquire knowledge and skill, no matter whether they acquire through forma, non-formal or informal means. Then, can we identify such knowledge and skill and keep them in a single National Qualifications Framework and level them as per the complexity in acquiring them in order to make all three forms of learning equivalent?
Respondent: It’s an interesting facet but it may have some unwanted consequences. For example, the knowledge system as a whole may inclined towards commercialization. Indigenous knowledge may be commercialized. It is potential rather than commercial. It is a non-commercial asset. I don’t think it should be treated as a commodity. If we use it as a commodity it may lose its ground. I think if we start treating indigenous knowledge it won’t posses its wisdom and preciousness. Indigenous knowledge has been preserved in the form of religion, culture and the faith of an individual. If we start certifying them it may lose it value. If we give monetary value to indigenous knowledge it may develop a negative tradition. Therefore, every time certificate may not provide value to informal learning.
Our indigenous knowledge deserves value without certificate. If we go on certifying the vast treasure of knowledge our ancestors preserved and transferred to us it will be a great injustice. Thus, certification can go against justice. To go for monetary system certification is needed but if certification gets space in spiritual values it may develop some kind of negative tradition.
Researcher: Sir, in order to preserve and promote such knowledge and skill what should be done?
Respondent: The most important thing is trust. We have to build up trust. The society moves on trust. For example, one goes to visit doctor because of trust. The patient doesn’t see the certificate of the doctor. We have to be accountable to the trust. Sometimes certificate can work as an instrument of trust but it can’t be the replacement of trust. Trust is virtue. So, we have to promote indigenous knowledge and skill in terms of trust.
We are bound by a kind of code-of-conduct. It has been working without certificate on the basis of faith system. If we keep everything on certificate and move accordingly we may lose many precious things of our culture and tradition. Furthermore, the tendency will degrade the given value of the indigenous knowledge.
If we respect indigenous knowledge in its own status it gets value but when we try to certify them some artificial knowledge may outwit such precious wisdom. I mean to say the artificial knowledge of an individual that s/he uses to get certificate may replace his/her real knowledge.
Researcher: Finally, what should we do to enhance lifelong learning and continuing education in the context of Nepal?
Respondent: The issue you have raised in very crucial. The main thing is how to make knowledge functional. If there is a positive relation between knowledge and its function it will enhance lifelong learning and continuing education but if it is not knowledge can deteriorate. Retention and promotion of knowledge is its application. In a professional community or organization we have to drive knowledge to its fullest we have to create a system of knowledge sharing and cross breading in order to make knowledge and skill functional. Our knowledge and skill can be multiplied by sharing. The system of sharing is needed in order to make our knowledge and skill contemporaneous. Knowledge earned 10 years ago may not be the same knowledge earned today and the knowledge likely to be earned after 10 years. There is no absolute truth in the world. Truth differs according to time and space. If a doctor has a certificate that s/he achieved 5 years ago it represents his/her knowledge of that time. The knowledge may not be functional if it is not made up-to-date. It may not give appropriate service and may culminate into unfavorable consequences. Therefore, knowledge has to be made contemporaneous. Thank you very much.
Researcher: Thank you very much sir for your time and valuable inputs for my research.
Transcription of interview 6
Transcription of interview 6
Date: July 18, 2009 (Saturday) Time 6 PM to 7:30 PM
Researcher: Madam Namaste!
Respondent: Namaskar sir. How are you doing?
Researcher: Well Ma'm. I finished transcribing an interview and waiting for you.
Respondent: That's right. I am ready. You can go ahead.
Researcher: Ma'm, in your opinion should we make people free to acquire knowledge and skill through all three modes of learning? If yes, how can we make people free to acquire knowledge through formal, non-formal and informal means?
Respondent: Yes we can. For this regard there should be collective effort from individual, community, government all.
Researcher: Should we make all these three forms equally important?
Respondent: yes. The most important is the individual him/herself. S/he should have learning attitude. After that other comes later. Otherwise it does not make sense.
Researcher: O k Madam. What do you think a nation should do to take all these forms in an equal footing?
Respondent: Nations effort is another important aspect. The nation should have clear policy, resources and other essential things. Though the nation’s attention is on formal education basically however, they have non-formal education program too. They should make it more effective providing more choices. About informal....they can do different program, campaign.... Actually lifelong learning is learning through the life which is possible in different context. Continuing education is one of the contexts.
Researcher: Thank you Ma'm. In your opinion should we provide certification to informal learners as equivalent to formal ones? If yes, how should their knowledge and skills should be assessed?
Respondent: This is the very important question and most essential thing too. In Nepal that kind of provision is rare. To make it more relevant they have to find out the practices of other countries and make the policy. In the US the community college provide that kind of knowledge and skills. Besides this the universities also conduct Adult education.... and continuing education program on regular basis....
Researcher: What problems do you see in identifying and recognizing indigenous knowledge in Nepal?
Respondent: The medium of mass education is said to be formal education, moreover in the context of Nepal without formal education we cannot imagine education system as a whole. But if we see the history of education and current international practices we can find entirely a different scenario. So, what I think is lifelong learning and continuing education, in a sense, is non-formal education and informal learning. We can take formal education for a very limited period of time. These two forms of learning are the constituents of lifelong learning. People can’t continue their formal education because of family problems but their knowledge and skills need to be updated and the only way to do this is non-formal and informal learning. Informal learning takes place wherever we go and whatever we do. To enhance it the place where people work or spend time should have learning environment.
Researcher: Can we provide eligibility for informal learners to enter into formal education system? For example, a person has never gone to school, neither college but s/he claims that s/he has the knowledge equivalent to the one who has passed Bachelor Degree through regular schooling. Can we allow the former to get admission in Master Degree? If yes, what type of mechanism should be developed?
Respondent: This is the most important and relevant issue. If a nation can do this it will be very good asset for it overall development. Because of the lack of such system a person who has skill and knowledge is deprived of opportunity because of the lack of certificate. As a consequence an individual, his/her society and as a whole the nation is in loss. What I have heard and read is that some people who have not even passed SLC are better, especially in mathematics, than a graduation holder. I think a country has to take such cases seriously. In our country, I think because of political instability these things are overshadowed. There should be a platform so as to provide opportunity for an individual to assess his/her knowledge and skill. A kind of placement test can be administered and on the basis of his/her performance he/she should be given an equivalent certificate.
Researcher: What type of problem do you think will come while recognizing various types of indigenous knowledge in a diversified nation like ours?
Respondent: Caste system – one of the negative aspect of Hinduism – can bring some problems. Caste system emerged out of works people did in the past. While the works of all the people are made equivalent in terms of the skill and knowledge needed it may bring some social conflict but I don’t think racial discrimination will be a major problem because of the government effort and public awareness. But there are chances of racial conflict so the proposed plan for recognition and validation of indigenous knowledge and skill should work in such way that it will minimize the chances of social conflict by changing our educational policy.
Researcher: Can we develop a National Qualifications Framework as the nations of European Union have done? What problems do you see to identify and list out all types of knowledge and skill – formal, non-formal, and informal- and keep them under a single framework so as to make the system of accreditation comfortable?
Respondent: It is relevant and necessary thing of our time. I think universities in Nepal have to design courses by analyzing the course of international universities so as to provide recognition and accreditation. Knowledge and skills should be made universally acceptable both inside and outside Nepal, otherwise it will bring problem. I think Nepal government should take this seriously. National Qualifications Framework should be developed with the help of proper indicators and it should also include the ways of assessing one’s knowledge, skills and competence.
Researcher: In the case of lifelong learning which form of learning – formal, non-formal and informal – do you think is more important? If you think they are equally important than how can we make them so in the context of Nepal?
Respondent: I think these three forms of learning are integrated things. A person studying in school learns not only what is in the curriculum. Side-by-side s/he learns while walking on the street, while involving with peers, while studying himself/herself. So, I don’t think formal learning alone can work. To enrich formal education both non-formal and informal learning have significant responsibility. In this sense formal learning can’t exist without informal and non-formal learning. All of these three forms have to be promoted simultaneously. Social organizations have to aware people of the importance of informal learning.
Researcher: Do you think non-formal and informal learner can compete with the people who come from formal schooling in the job market?
Respondent: I don’t think it will be a problem. When one has an equivalent certificate s/he can easily compete with others. Equivalent certificate means equivalent knowledge, skill and competence. But effective criteria have to be developed to assess such knowledge, skills and competence. If a valid institution assess in a fair manner all types of learners who are certified equally well. If we develop such type of culture, I think this will not be a problem.
Researcher: Madam, should the government allow them to fight for the government posts such as in Public Service Commission?
Respondent: I don’t know why the people are motivated to government posts. Competent people shouldn’t depend on the job created by others, rather they have to create job for them themselves. They can be entrepreneur, businessperson, anything as per their interests and capacity.
Researcher: Finally, how do you think we should validate informal and non-formal learning so as to enhance lifelong learning and continuing education?
Respondent: As I said already we have to develop a National Qualifications Framework at national level and that should be comparable to international level. Our education standard has to be made as equal as the standard of international level. Knowledge and skill assessment shouldn’t be limited to paper and pencil test. There should be effective, valid and reliable ability testing mechanism. For validation there should be clear assessment criteria. After rigorous experimentation policy has to be made to institutionalize it. It is not an easy task but if we can do it, it will certainly make a great contribution for a large group of disadvantaged people of the nation.
Researcher: Madam, thank you very much for providing me time and give valuable inputs.
Date: July 18, 2009 (Saturday) Time 6 PM to 7:30 PM
Researcher: Madam Namaste!
Respondent: Namaskar sir. How are you doing?
Researcher: Well Ma'm. I finished transcribing an interview and waiting for you.
Respondent: That's right. I am ready. You can go ahead.
Researcher: Ma'm, in your opinion should we make people free to acquire knowledge and skill through all three modes of learning? If yes, how can we make people free to acquire knowledge through formal, non-formal and informal means?
Respondent: Yes we can. For this regard there should be collective effort from individual, community, government all.
Researcher: Should we make all these three forms equally important?
Respondent: yes. The most important is the individual him/herself. S/he should have learning attitude. After that other comes later. Otherwise it does not make sense.
Researcher: O k Madam. What do you think a nation should do to take all these forms in an equal footing?
Respondent: Nations effort is another important aspect. The nation should have clear policy, resources and other essential things. Though the nation’s attention is on formal education basically however, they have non-formal education program too. They should make it more effective providing more choices. About informal....they can do different program, campaign.... Actually lifelong learning is learning through the life which is possible in different context. Continuing education is one of the contexts.
Researcher: Thank you Ma'm. In your opinion should we provide certification to informal learners as equivalent to formal ones? If yes, how should their knowledge and skills should be assessed?
Respondent: This is the very important question and most essential thing too. In Nepal that kind of provision is rare. To make it more relevant they have to find out the practices of other countries and make the policy. In the US the community college provide that kind of knowledge and skills. Besides this the universities also conduct Adult education.... and continuing education program on regular basis....
Researcher: What problems do you see in identifying and recognizing indigenous knowledge in Nepal?
Respondent: The medium of mass education is said to be formal education, moreover in the context of Nepal without formal education we cannot imagine education system as a whole. But if we see the history of education and current international practices we can find entirely a different scenario. So, what I think is lifelong learning and continuing education, in a sense, is non-formal education and informal learning. We can take formal education for a very limited period of time. These two forms of learning are the constituents of lifelong learning. People can’t continue their formal education because of family problems but their knowledge and skills need to be updated and the only way to do this is non-formal and informal learning. Informal learning takes place wherever we go and whatever we do. To enhance it the place where people work or spend time should have learning environment.
Researcher: Can we provide eligibility for informal learners to enter into formal education system? For example, a person has never gone to school, neither college but s/he claims that s/he has the knowledge equivalent to the one who has passed Bachelor Degree through regular schooling. Can we allow the former to get admission in Master Degree? If yes, what type of mechanism should be developed?
Respondent: This is the most important and relevant issue. If a nation can do this it will be very good asset for it overall development. Because of the lack of such system a person who has skill and knowledge is deprived of opportunity because of the lack of certificate. As a consequence an individual, his/her society and as a whole the nation is in loss. What I have heard and read is that some people who have not even passed SLC are better, especially in mathematics, than a graduation holder. I think a country has to take such cases seriously. In our country, I think because of political instability these things are overshadowed. There should be a platform so as to provide opportunity for an individual to assess his/her knowledge and skill. A kind of placement test can be administered and on the basis of his/her performance he/she should be given an equivalent certificate.
Researcher: What type of problem do you think will come while recognizing various types of indigenous knowledge in a diversified nation like ours?
Respondent: Caste system – one of the negative aspect of Hinduism – can bring some problems. Caste system emerged out of works people did in the past. While the works of all the people are made equivalent in terms of the skill and knowledge needed it may bring some social conflict but I don’t think racial discrimination will be a major problem because of the government effort and public awareness. But there are chances of racial conflict so the proposed plan for recognition and validation of indigenous knowledge and skill should work in such way that it will minimize the chances of social conflict by changing our educational policy.
Researcher: Can we develop a National Qualifications Framework as the nations of European Union have done? What problems do you see to identify and list out all types of knowledge and skill – formal, non-formal, and informal- and keep them under a single framework so as to make the system of accreditation comfortable?
Respondent: It is relevant and necessary thing of our time. I think universities in Nepal have to design courses by analyzing the course of international universities so as to provide recognition and accreditation. Knowledge and skills should be made universally acceptable both inside and outside Nepal, otherwise it will bring problem. I think Nepal government should take this seriously. National Qualifications Framework should be developed with the help of proper indicators and it should also include the ways of assessing one’s knowledge, skills and competence.
Researcher: In the case of lifelong learning which form of learning – formal, non-formal and informal – do you think is more important? If you think they are equally important than how can we make them so in the context of Nepal?
Respondent: I think these three forms of learning are integrated things. A person studying in school learns not only what is in the curriculum. Side-by-side s/he learns while walking on the street, while involving with peers, while studying himself/herself. So, I don’t think formal learning alone can work. To enrich formal education both non-formal and informal learning have significant responsibility. In this sense formal learning can’t exist without informal and non-formal learning. All of these three forms have to be promoted simultaneously. Social organizations have to aware people of the importance of informal learning.
Researcher: Do you think non-formal and informal learner can compete with the people who come from formal schooling in the job market?
Respondent: I don’t think it will be a problem. When one has an equivalent certificate s/he can easily compete with others. Equivalent certificate means equivalent knowledge, skill and competence. But effective criteria have to be developed to assess such knowledge, skills and competence. If a valid institution assess in a fair manner all types of learners who are certified equally well. If we develop such type of culture, I think this will not be a problem.
Researcher: Madam, should the government allow them to fight for the government posts such as in Public Service Commission?
Respondent: I don’t know why the people are motivated to government posts. Competent people shouldn’t depend on the job created by others, rather they have to create job for them themselves. They can be entrepreneur, businessperson, anything as per their interests and capacity.
Researcher: Finally, how do you think we should validate informal and non-formal learning so as to enhance lifelong learning and continuing education?
Respondent: As I said already we have to develop a National Qualifications Framework at national level and that should be comparable to international level. Our education standard has to be made as equal as the standard of international level. Knowledge and skill assessment shouldn’t be limited to paper and pencil test. There should be effective, valid and reliable ability testing mechanism. For validation there should be clear assessment criteria. After rigorous experimentation policy has to be made to institutionalize it. It is not an easy task but if we can do it, it will certainly make a great contribution for a large group of disadvantaged people of the nation.
Researcher: Madam, thank you very much for providing me time and give valuable inputs.
Transcription of interview 5
Transcription of interview 5
Date: July 17, 2009 (Friday) Time 4 PM to 4:30 PM
Researcher: Sir, in your opinion, should we make formal, non-formal and informal learning equal? If yes, how can we do so? And particularly, if we have to provide freedom of choice for learners through three forms of learning equally well what should we do?
Respondent: If you take me as a reference, I learnt about 80% informally. Formal learning taught me just to read and write. We learn many things in our life such as behavioral learning, moral learning etc informally. The time of formal learning is very limited, just 5-6 hours in a day. Moreover, formal learning takes very short period of time of our life span. I think non-formal learning is a different side. But the problem is that there are no formal ways for formulizing informal learning. What I believe is that we should make informal learning equal to formal learning.
Researcher: How do you think we can make the three formal of learning equal?
Respondent: Well, the concept of making them equal depends on the context. But the answer of the question ‘how’ is difficult. In my opinion, it has to be started from political level. It needs a political commitment. In our country political parties are strong in the sense that they have good and unified cadres. They should be trained for educational purpose. Educational reforms should be the agenda of political parties.
Making the three forms of learning is a reform in education. If we see the countries who have adopted this strategy have done it in two ways. The first strategy is adding values to the existing system of education such as in curriculum, teacher education, teaching, learning, etc. The second strategy is that starting a new system of education – a complete reform. I think Nepal should adopt the second strategy because we have not touched the part of informal learning yet.
We can find some good practices of educational reform in international level. For example, Finland has done very good in education by focusing it education system on teachers. Teachers are at the center of entire education system. They are responsible for developing curriculum, giving moral education, raising social awareness, etc. We can see the example of Uganda as well. It is like Nepal but has done good progress in education. It started through political commitment. We also need to have a firm commitment at political level. The nation has to be fully devoted to bring such commitment into reality. The government has to create environment and all of us should work on this.
Including political leaders and their cadres all the citizens of this country have to improve their attitude. The best means of improving one’s attitude is informal education. So, a firm political commitment for education reform is obligatory.
Researcher: What do you mean by making the three forms of learning equal? Do you mean that we have to certify informal and non-formal learners as we have done to formal learners?
Respondent: No, it’s impossible. Giving moral education doesn’t mean giving certificates. It’s more often a socialization process. Moral education is not necessarily given in school. It can be through citizen orientation. For example, while providing citizenship to an individual we should give 2-3 days orientation. It can be either informally or non-formally so as to let them know what his/her responsibilities for the nation are. We have to promote such type of informal learning.
Researcher: Sir, in your opinion can we provide opportunity for the informal learning to enter into formal schooling? For example an individual who has never gone to school but claims that he/she has the knowledge equivalent to the Grade X student. Can we certify his/her knowledge and allow him/her to start his/her formal education from Grade XI? What kind of mechanism a county has to develop for this?
Respondent: Yes, we can do that and it has been doing to some extent in the form of open learning, private tests, etc. Even we have some very good examples where informal and non-formal learning have been recognized. For example, we have a professor who doesn’t have the experience of formal education even of Grade I but he has adequate knowledge to be a good professor.
Researcher: That was perhaps an exceptional case in which his/her outstanding performance was taken into account. The question is can we do this in a national scale?
Respondent: I think the nation should be able to do this. The main problem is culture and I don’t think it can be done through a single standardized tests. It needs different parameters. We have to go beyond that.
Researcher: People need to have their formal degree because without it they can’t be employed in the job market. Hence they have to lose social prestige and status. Then shouldn’t we certify them and open doors for further learning and employment?
Respondent: Certification is ok but main thing is enhancement of knowledge and skills. There are examples where people with higher qualification are unemployed or less employed or holding inferior position than the one who has relatively lower qualification. It is because they are more efficient than the so-called higher degree holders. People learn more than just to read and write. They have different skills and attitude. Certification should be on the basis of quality of learning of those skills. So certification should be done through proper assessment of knowledge and skills that are learnt informally and non-formally. So, in my opinion certification of informal learning can be done at national scale and is necessary.
Researcher: Who do you think should take the responsibility of assessing the skills and knowledge of informal learners for certification?
Respondent: I think it depends on the type of capacity to be assessed. If it is skill then there is already an institution for skill test that is CTEVT. It has to be promoted. I don’t think a new institution has to be established. From my research I have found that our institutions have potentiality but the culture of using such potentiality has not been developed. If such environment is created and the people are committed the existing institutions can perform this task. So the existing institutions have to be promoted and kept beyond the influence of selfish politics.
Researcher: What problems do you see to identify, recognize and validate the precious indigenous knowledge of our country?
Respondent: I don’t think all the knowledge of this type should be certified. Certification is an artificial thing. The main thing is recognition such indigenous knowledge and skills. Government should bring some schemes for recognition and the local government should promote such knowledge and skills. And, I am not in the position to say that all types of informal learning can be formalized. All types of knowledge can’t be assessed and certified. Through informal learning we need to change the entire social system of our country. So, it is impossible to achieve this goal by forcefully certifying all types of informal knowledge and skills.
Researcher: To create an environment conducive for enhancing lifelong learning and continuing education what additional provisions have to be made in Nepal?
Respondent: As I said already there should be commitment from the people from top to bottom level. We have to realize that we need to update our knowledge and continue to throughout our lives. I don’t think all of us are ready for this. Both government and public have some weaknesses. These weaknesses have to be overcome, especially by the political parties. Politicians have to realize it and fulfill their commitment.
Researcher: Can we identify all type of knowledge, skill and competence and put them under a single National Qualifications Framework? What problems and difficulty do you see in our culturally diversified nation?
Respondent: Certainly, it will bring a lot of difficulties and problems. Different variable may emerge. There may be much variation. Some undefined skills may come. They need time to be defined. There may be many problems but what I believe is that we have to do it. It’s possible. There are some hopes to because general people have been aware. Some of them are energetic and enthusiastic but we need to have commitment.
Researcher: Sir, anything you would like to say at the end of our conversation?
Respondent: It’s alright. Our education system is in confusion on whether to follow Western philosophy or Easter philosophy. So far as your attempt to take the three forms of learning in an equal footing, it’s great but to make it contributive you need to have diligence. All the best!
Researcher: Thank you very much sir. I will try my best!
Date: July 17, 2009 (Friday) Time 4 PM to 4:30 PM
Researcher: Sir, in your opinion, should we make formal, non-formal and informal learning equal? If yes, how can we do so? And particularly, if we have to provide freedom of choice for learners through three forms of learning equally well what should we do?
Respondent: If you take me as a reference, I learnt about 80% informally. Formal learning taught me just to read and write. We learn many things in our life such as behavioral learning, moral learning etc informally. The time of formal learning is very limited, just 5-6 hours in a day. Moreover, formal learning takes very short period of time of our life span. I think non-formal learning is a different side. But the problem is that there are no formal ways for formulizing informal learning. What I believe is that we should make informal learning equal to formal learning.
Researcher: How do you think we can make the three formal of learning equal?
Respondent: Well, the concept of making them equal depends on the context. But the answer of the question ‘how’ is difficult. In my opinion, it has to be started from political level. It needs a political commitment. In our country political parties are strong in the sense that they have good and unified cadres. They should be trained for educational purpose. Educational reforms should be the agenda of political parties.
Making the three forms of learning is a reform in education. If we see the countries who have adopted this strategy have done it in two ways. The first strategy is adding values to the existing system of education such as in curriculum, teacher education, teaching, learning, etc. The second strategy is that starting a new system of education – a complete reform. I think Nepal should adopt the second strategy because we have not touched the part of informal learning yet.
We can find some good practices of educational reform in international level. For example, Finland has done very good in education by focusing it education system on teachers. Teachers are at the center of entire education system. They are responsible for developing curriculum, giving moral education, raising social awareness, etc. We can see the example of Uganda as well. It is like Nepal but has done good progress in education. It started through political commitment. We also need to have a firm commitment at political level. The nation has to be fully devoted to bring such commitment into reality. The government has to create environment and all of us should work on this.
Including political leaders and their cadres all the citizens of this country have to improve their attitude. The best means of improving one’s attitude is informal education. So, a firm political commitment for education reform is obligatory.
Researcher: What do you mean by making the three forms of learning equal? Do you mean that we have to certify informal and non-formal learners as we have done to formal learners?
Respondent: No, it’s impossible. Giving moral education doesn’t mean giving certificates. It’s more often a socialization process. Moral education is not necessarily given in school. It can be through citizen orientation. For example, while providing citizenship to an individual we should give 2-3 days orientation. It can be either informally or non-formally so as to let them know what his/her responsibilities for the nation are. We have to promote such type of informal learning.
Researcher: Sir, in your opinion can we provide opportunity for the informal learning to enter into formal schooling? For example an individual who has never gone to school but claims that he/she has the knowledge equivalent to the Grade X student. Can we certify his/her knowledge and allow him/her to start his/her formal education from Grade XI? What kind of mechanism a county has to develop for this?
Respondent: Yes, we can do that and it has been doing to some extent in the form of open learning, private tests, etc. Even we have some very good examples where informal and non-formal learning have been recognized. For example, we have a professor who doesn’t have the experience of formal education even of Grade I but he has adequate knowledge to be a good professor.
Researcher: That was perhaps an exceptional case in which his/her outstanding performance was taken into account. The question is can we do this in a national scale?
Respondent: I think the nation should be able to do this. The main problem is culture and I don’t think it can be done through a single standardized tests. It needs different parameters. We have to go beyond that.
Researcher: People need to have their formal degree because without it they can’t be employed in the job market. Hence they have to lose social prestige and status. Then shouldn’t we certify them and open doors for further learning and employment?
Respondent: Certification is ok but main thing is enhancement of knowledge and skills. There are examples where people with higher qualification are unemployed or less employed or holding inferior position than the one who has relatively lower qualification. It is because they are more efficient than the so-called higher degree holders. People learn more than just to read and write. They have different skills and attitude. Certification should be on the basis of quality of learning of those skills. So certification should be done through proper assessment of knowledge and skills that are learnt informally and non-formally. So, in my opinion certification of informal learning can be done at national scale and is necessary.
Researcher: Who do you think should take the responsibility of assessing the skills and knowledge of informal learners for certification?
Respondent: I think it depends on the type of capacity to be assessed. If it is skill then there is already an institution for skill test that is CTEVT. It has to be promoted. I don’t think a new institution has to be established. From my research I have found that our institutions have potentiality but the culture of using such potentiality has not been developed. If such environment is created and the people are committed the existing institutions can perform this task. So the existing institutions have to be promoted and kept beyond the influence of selfish politics.
Researcher: What problems do you see to identify, recognize and validate the precious indigenous knowledge of our country?
Respondent: I don’t think all the knowledge of this type should be certified. Certification is an artificial thing. The main thing is recognition such indigenous knowledge and skills. Government should bring some schemes for recognition and the local government should promote such knowledge and skills. And, I am not in the position to say that all types of informal learning can be formalized. All types of knowledge can’t be assessed and certified. Through informal learning we need to change the entire social system of our country. So, it is impossible to achieve this goal by forcefully certifying all types of informal knowledge and skills.
Researcher: To create an environment conducive for enhancing lifelong learning and continuing education what additional provisions have to be made in Nepal?
Respondent: As I said already there should be commitment from the people from top to bottom level. We have to realize that we need to update our knowledge and continue to throughout our lives. I don’t think all of us are ready for this. Both government and public have some weaknesses. These weaknesses have to be overcome, especially by the political parties. Politicians have to realize it and fulfill their commitment.
Researcher: Can we identify all type of knowledge, skill and competence and put them under a single National Qualifications Framework? What problems and difficulty do you see in our culturally diversified nation?
Respondent: Certainly, it will bring a lot of difficulties and problems. Different variable may emerge. There may be much variation. Some undefined skills may come. They need time to be defined. There may be many problems but what I believe is that we have to do it. It’s possible. There are some hopes to because general people have been aware. Some of them are energetic and enthusiastic but we need to have commitment.
Researcher: Sir, anything you would like to say at the end of our conversation?
Respondent: It’s alright. Our education system is in confusion on whether to follow Western philosophy or Easter philosophy. So far as your attempt to take the three forms of learning in an equal footing, it’s great but to make it contributive you need to have diligence. All the best!
Researcher: Thank you very much sir. I will try my best!
Transcription of interview 4
Transcription of interview 4
Date: July 17, 2009 (Friday) Time 3:30 PM to 4 PM
Researcher: In terms of recognition and investment it seems that the nation has given importance only to formal education. Should we make the three modes of learning: formal, non-formal and informal equal? If yes, how can we make them equal?
Respondent: Though there is more investment in formal learning Non-formal learning has also got little investment. So far as the case of making the three modes of learning equivalent there is no doubt that they have to be made equal but the question of how to make them so is still not completely answered. Some documents have spoken on this regard. MOE has worked on this to some extent, for example, the School Sector Reform Plan. However, it is not enough. It needs to be discussed extensively in order to find it opportunities and challenges at level wise and discipline wise and some sort of qualification standard has to be maintained. To make informal and non-formal learner adjustable with formal learning some sort of bridge course should be completed.
Researcher: So, in your opinion we can certify the ones who have come from non-formal and informal background, isn’t it sir?
Respondent: Yes we can do. We can certify the ones who have come informally and non-formally as has been done by CTEVT. But certificate doesn’t necessarily mean that he/she is eligible everywhere. But on the basis of knowledge and skills acquired s/he should be allowed to go for higher education.
Researcher: If so, in your opinion if one has got certificate of B. A. equivalent after the assessment of his/her knowledge, skill and competence then should he/she be allowed to compete, let’s suppose, for section officer in the Public Service Commission?
Respondent: It’s an extreme case, but personally I am positive. There should be a system of assessing knowledge and skills of this type. It has to be systematized. There’s somehow a system for this for example private study and Open University. It has also encouraged non-formal and informal learning but mechanism has to be developed extensively. It has to be more flexible fo doing so. Some people have done masters without going to college, isn’t it an example?
Researcher: The case of providing the opportunity of assessment and certification for private students, especially by Tribhuvan University in Nepal, is in a small scale but the question here is whether we can develop a mechanism to include even indigenous and cultural knowledge at national scale who do you think should develop such mechanism?
Respondent: An umbrella body can be there according to disciplined and there can be many branches – one office only can’t do it. For example, there may be many aspects that have to be inculcated such as technical skill, vocational skill, general skill and other indigenous knowledge. So, separate branches have to be developed to include all types of knowledge and skill. The umbrella body can develop framework to identify national qualifications.
Researcher: Sir, in our society the products of formal learning have certificates; they have better chances of opportunity as a consequence they have better social prestige. If we certified informal and non-formal learners as equivalently as formal learners do you think they can compete with the formal learners and grab employment opportunities?
Respondent: If he she has ability and the certification is given according to such ability then, I think he or she is able to compete with the ones who come from formal schooling. I see no problem there. The people who have learned through their lives are able to get success. There are many things beside qualifications that help them solve their life problems. Academic qualifications that we accumulate through formal schooling are not only the major things for getting success.
Researcher: Obviously, people need to learn throughout their life which is technically called lifelong learning and continuing education. For enhancing it what provisions have been made in our country and what should be done for its further enhancement?
Respondent: There are no particular programs as such but you can see some initiatives such as non-formal education. It is provided in three phases which can be further enhanced. The main thing for this is that the nation has to provide venue and opportunity for lifelong learning. Whoever can do on their own should be provided with a minimum condition to flourish it. Lifelong opportunities should be created at the local level. At the central level resource centers have to be established. Opportunities have to be grabbed by the people so that awareness has to be created.
Researcher: Every professional-such as a teacher, a doctor, and an engineer- needs to update their knowledge and skills. What kind of strategy the government needs to adopt?
Respondent: It’s not only the responsibility of government. Both government and individual should equally be responsible for this. If the individuals are not active and willing to grab the opportunity government alone can do nothing. But government must provide venue for grabbing the opportunity. The policy, rules and regulations should facilitate and promote it. Moreover, there should be coordination among INGO and NGO, community organizations and private organization. Mainly government should play the role of facilitator and backward communities have to be identified and promoted to be able to grab the opportunities.
Researcher: What problems do you see if we validate informal learning in the context of Nepal where racial hierarchy is still prevalent? For example, the skill of a Brahmin to perform religious ritual and the skill of a cobbler to mend shoes may fall on the same level.
Respondent: I think if the skills of such types are made equal it will reduce social inequality and discrimination. All types of works/labor are equal so the workers/labors of all kinds should be treated equally. I don’t think that literate people should instruct others and others should work. If he/she has skills he/she can work independently and the society should create environment for this. I don’t think such provision of leveling the skills of all types will create conflict. In a sense such era of discrimination has ended. The oppressed group will resist if the member of such group are discriminated.
Researcher: Undoubtedly, Nepal is a diversified nation. There are various types of indigenous knowledge. How can we inculcate all of these indigenous knowledge and skills in a single National Qualifications Framework? How do you think we should manage them?
Respondent: The umbrella body that I have already talked should be responsible for this. I think our culturally and indigenous diversity are our valuable assets. If we promote them we can reduce external dependence of our country. So far as including the diversified indigenous skills and knowledge into a National Qualifications Framework is concerned I think the works has to done at local level first. I don’t think all knowledge and skills should be brought at the same place. National standard has to be made and implemented in a local context. I don’t think there will be unsolvable problems but enough endeavors have to be made. Different counties of the world have worked for this. I think we must do this ultimately.
Researcher: Sir, would you like to say anything at the end of our discussion?
Respondent: Well, as I have already said we have to recognize the non-formal and informal learning taking diversity and cultural differences into account. But we have to be committed on this.
Researcher: Sir, thank you very much for giving me your valuable times.
Date: July 17, 2009 (Friday) Time 3:30 PM to 4 PM
Researcher: In terms of recognition and investment it seems that the nation has given importance only to formal education. Should we make the three modes of learning: formal, non-formal and informal equal? If yes, how can we make them equal?
Respondent: Though there is more investment in formal learning Non-formal learning has also got little investment. So far as the case of making the three modes of learning equivalent there is no doubt that they have to be made equal but the question of how to make them so is still not completely answered. Some documents have spoken on this regard. MOE has worked on this to some extent, for example, the School Sector Reform Plan. However, it is not enough. It needs to be discussed extensively in order to find it opportunities and challenges at level wise and discipline wise and some sort of qualification standard has to be maintained. To make informal and non-formal learner adjustable with formal learning some sort of bridge course should be completed.
Researcher: So, in your opinion we can certify the ones who have come from non-formal and informal background, isn’t it sir?
Respondent: Yes we can do. We can certify the ones who have come informally and non-formally as has been done by CTEVT. But certificate doesn’t necessarily mean that he/she is eligible everywhere. But on the basis of knowledge and skills acquired s/he should be allowed to go for higher education.
Researcher: If so, in your opinion if one has got certificate of B. A. equivalent after the assessment of his/her knowledge, skill and competence then should he/she be allowed to compete, let’s suppose, for section officer in the Public Service Commission?
Respondent: It’s an extreme case, but personally I am positive. There should be a system of assessing knowledge and skills of this type. It has to be systematized. There’s somehow a system for this for example private study and Open University. It has also encouraged non-formal and informal learning but mechanism has to be developed extensively. It has to be more flexible fo doing so. Some people have done masters without going to college, isn’t it an example?
Researcher: The case of providing the opportunity of assessment and certification for private students, especially by Tribhuvan University in Nepal, is in a small scale but the question here is whether we can develop a mechanism to include even indigenous and cultural knowledge at national scale who do you think should develop such mechanism?
Respondent: An umbrella body can be there according to disciplined and there can be many branches – one office only can’t do it. For example, there may be many aspects that have to be inculcated such as technical skill, vocational skill, general skill and other indigenous knowledge. So, separate branches have to be developed to include all types of knowledge and skill. The umbrella body can develop framework to identify national qualifications.
Researcher: Sir, in our society the products of formal learning have certificates; they have better chances of opportunity as a consequence they have better social prestige. If we certified informal and non-formal learners as equivalently as formal learners do you think they can compete with the formal learners and grab employment opportunities?
Respondent: If he she has ability and the certification is given according to such ability then, I think he or she is able to compete with the ones who come from formal schooling. I see no problem there. The people who have learned through their lives are able to get success. There are many things beside qualifications that help them solve their life problems. Academic qualifications that we accumulate through formal schooling are not only the major things for getting success.
Researcher: Obviously, people need to learn throughout their life which is technically called lifelong learning and continuing education. For enhancing it what provisions have been made in our country and what should be done for its further enhancement?
Respondent: There are no particular programs as such but you can see some initiatives such as non-formal education. It is provided in three phases which can be further enhanced. The main thing for this is that the nation has to provide venue and opportunity for lifelong learning. Whoever can do on their own should be provided with a minimum condition to flourish it. Lifelong opportunities should be created at the local level. At the central level resource centers have to be established. Opportunities have to be grabbed by the people so that awareness has to be created.
Researcher: Every professional-such as a teacher, a doctor, and an engineer- needs to update their knowledge and skills. What kind of strategy the government needs to adopt?
Respondent: It’s not only the responsibility of government. Both government and individual should equally be responsible for this. If the individuals are not active and willing to grab the opportunity government alone can do nothing. But government must provide venue for grabbing the opportunity. The policy, rules and regulations should facilitate and promote it. Moreover, there should be coordination among INGO and NGO, community organizations and private organization. Mainly government should play the role of facilitator and backward communities have to be identified and promoted to be able to grab the opportunities.
Researcher: What problems do you see if we validate informal learning in the context of Nepal where racial hierarchy is still prevalent? For example, the skill of a Brahmin to perform religious ritual and the skill of a cobbler to mend shoes may fall on the same level.
Respondent: I think if the skills of such types are made equal it will reduce social inequality and discrimination. All types of works/labor are equal so the workers/labors of all kinds should be treated equally. I don’t think that literate people should instruct others and others should work. If he/she has skills he/she can work independently and the society should create environment for this. I don’t think such provision of leveling the skills of all types will create conflict. In a sense such era of discrimination has ended. The oppressed group will resist if the member of such group are discriminated.
Researcher: Undoubtedly, Nepal is a diversified nation. There are various types of indigenous knowledge. How can we inculcate all of these indigenous knowledge and skills in a single National Qualifications Framework? How do you think we should manage them?
Respondent: The umbrella body that I have already talked should be responsible for this. I think our culturally and indigenous diversity are our valuable assets. If we promote them we can reduce external dependence of our country. So far as including the diversified indigenous skills and knowledge into a National Qualifications Framework is concerned I think the works has to done at local level first. I don’t think all knowledge and skills should be brought at the same place. National standard has to be made and implemented in a local context. I don’t think there will be unsolvable problems but enough endeavors have to be made. Different counties of the world have worked for this. I think we must do this ultimately.
Researcher: Sir, would you like to say anything at the end of our discussion?
Respondent: Well, as I have already said we have to recognize the non-formal and informal learning taking diversity and cultural differences into account. But we have to be committed on this.
Researcher: Sir, thank you very much for giving me your valuable times.
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